Shalane and Kara

get read dude wrote:

Consistency wrote:

Women's empowerment? That's a joke. Have you read all the grief poured upon Galen Rupp here over the years? This site is nothing if not an equal opportunity criticizer.

Apparently someone taught you to play the victim card and find sexism where there is none. Well played my feminist overreacter.

I don't doubt for a moment that you find women's empowerment a joke. And, although you are desperate to believe I want to play the victim card, I do not. My intent is to confront and expose the dehumanizing attitudes men unleash on women every day of their lives. I am not a vicitim. Never have been, never will be.

You're playing the victim card right now. I pretty sure my wife doesn't think that men unleash "dehumanizing attitudes" on her every day of her life.

You're trying to equate legitimate criticism of an athlete who happens to be female to mysogyny and yes, that is a joke. Galen Rupp has had his share of below the belt comments thrown at him on this board, far worse than a few of the potshots in this thread and I'm pretty sure you haven't shared this same sense of outrage. This makes you the sexist, not me.

I'm not desperate to believe anything, I just call 'em as I see 'em.

I have no filter wrote:

Is Shalane like the Ritzenhein of USA women's marathoning? Just that there is no female equivalence of a Ryan Hall to challenge her?

There is one. Her name is Deena Kastor.

Consistency wrote:

...You're right, we shouldn't criticize because we've never been in their shoes. I have a job, I have to buy my own shoes, I have to pay my own race fees, I don't get daily massages, I don't have a dietician prpearing my meals, I don't have access to physical therapy 24/7, alter-g treadmills, and the best sports physicians available. These are things I will never know, yet I still get out and train to the best of my ability every day and run my best every time I enter a marathon.

How about we have them live in the circumstances that the majority of us have to deal with every day and then see how they do? maybe then I'll have a little sympathy for them being criticized on an internet messageboard.

Hey, Poor Mr./Mrs. Blue Collar Runner Who Has To Cook Your Own Meals And Doesn't Get A Daily Massage Or Free Shoes...here's a clue for ya.

These women get these kinds of training conditions and treatment because they are world class runners. You're not, therefore you don't.

You seem to be implying that if YOU had all those advantages, YOU would have been in the Olympic marathon and done a better job than these amazing women. Or, that Kara and Shalane are only fast because they are pampered and privileged and don't have all the hard ass conditions that poor little you have to endure.

They are privileged. But it's because they are talented and worked their asses off for years to make the most of their talent so they could have the opportunities they now enjoy.

I think she was reacting to the OP and those who agree with him. And the point isn't that the rest of us don't know what it's like to put it all out there when we train and compete. The difference is the pressure and scrutiny. No one knows what that's like until you've been through it. It would be nice to see some people show a shred of empathy once in a while around here. I don't have a problem with fair criticism at all; but I do have a big problem with all the unfair, personal attacks. The fact that many can't see the difference--or don't care about the difference either way--is troubling.

Consistency wrote:

You're playing the victim card right now...

Says the guy whining about having to pay his own race fees and buy his own shoes and not having access to an alter-G and doesn't have a dietician...blah, blah, blah.

If you would bother to read what I was replying to you would see that I was pointing out that there are a lot of us who also put in the work and effort THAT AREN'T AS TALENTED and don't have the benefits that these two ladies have, but we still carry on much as they do. We just have to do it ourselves, and that no, they don't know what it is like to have to wait in line at the port a john or pay out of pocket for PT, etc.

I never said I would make the Olympics. I never even said I would make the trials. Nor did I say that they're there because of their perks and their perks only. But to play the old "poor girls card" when they get all the benefits they need to perform at their best is ridiculous.

Don't make assumptions about what I "seem to be implying". It makes you look like an ass.

oldXChasbeen wrote:

Consistency wrote:

You're playing the victim card right now...

Says the guy whining about having to pay his own race fees and buy his own shoes and not having access to an alter-G and doesn't have a dietician...blah, blah, blah.

I didn't whine about anything, I pointed out that these ladies don't have to do these things, and that yes, some of us are jsut as passionate (albeit not as talented) about the sport in that we're willing to pay for shoes, race fees, P.T., etc. It certainly doesn't keep me from running.

Actually, I was wrong in my previous post. You don't look like an ass. You are an ass.

orbitboy wrote:

I think she was reacting to the OP and those who agree with him. And the point isn't that the rest of us don't know what it's like to put it all out there when we train and compete. The difference is the pressure and scrutiny. No one knows what that's like until you've been through it. It would be nice to see some people show a shred of empathy once in a while around here. I don't have a problem with fair criticism at all; but I do have a big problem with all the unfair, personal attacks. The fact that many can't see the difference--or don't care about the difference either way--is troubling.

Hey, I agree with you. I just think that if we're going to start singling out two women to defend, instead of calling out this crap wherever we see it, that is troubling too.

We shouldn't be outraged because two women got criticized unfairly. We should be outraged that two human beings got criticized unfairly and it shouldn't matter if it is Shalane and Kara or Tegenkamp and Ritzenhein. That was my point to the woman that I called out.

Consistency wrote:

Actually, I was wrong in my previous post. You don't look like an ass. You are an ass.

Says the guy who has done nothing but bitch, whine and argue on this thread...

oldXChasbeen wrote:

Consistency wrote:

Actually, I was wrong in my previous post. You don't look like an ass. You are an ass.

Says the guy who has done nothing but bitch, whine and argue on this thread...

Uh huh. Were any of my posts orginally dorected to you?

The answer would be no, so why are you replying to me and calling me names and attacking me?

You're starting the argument with me pal, not the other way around.

Oh my, this thread has taken more twists and turns than the London course, along with some bumps and scrapes along the way. And now it's morphed into a male-sub elite vs female elite defender verbal imbroglio.

The analogy of the 2008 men's results is relatively apt here. They were hyped, we were hyped, and they faced some less than ideal conditions and ther results were (well) pretty much as can be expected.

It would have been nice to see Flanagan hang in the top 5 over the last few Ks, but she was spent. It happens. Goucher finished about where you'd expect. I figured 8th -12th for her.

Midriff rulls wrote:

Oh my, this thread has taken more twists and turns than the London course, along with some bumps and scrapes along the way. And now it's morphed into a male-sub elite vs female elite defender verbal imbroglio.

The analogy of the 2008 men's results is relatively apt here. They were hyped, we were hyped, and they faced some less than ideal conditions and ther results were (well) pretty much as can be expected.

It would have been nice to see Flanagan hang in the top 5 over the last few Ks, but she was spent. It happens. Goucher finished about where you'd expect. I figured 8th -12th for her.

Yeah, it's funny how that happens. I suppose part of it it the old "internet tough guy" syndrome where people will say things online that they would never say in person.

That being said, I still don't feel sorry for these women getting legitimate criticism if it is warranted as they have at their disposal all the tools they need to be their best. The question is, did they do their best? I would think so looking at the results.

I looked at the times they ran compared to their PRs, and to be honest, they probably ended up about where they should have. If your best time is 2:25 and someone runs 2:23 on a tougher course than you ran your 2:25, it probably hard to expect to beat them.

10 and 11 in the world (correct me if they placed higher) is still not too shabby and they should be proud of that accomplishment.

Consistency wrote:

oldXChasbeen wrote:

Says the guy who has done nothing but bitch, whine and argue on this thread...

Uh huh. Were any of my posts orginally dorected to you?

The answer would be no, so why are you replying to me and calling me names and attacking me?

You're starting the argument with me pal, not the other way around.

This is an open forum, friend. You post on a LRC thread, you open yourself up to criticism from anyone on this board. You called me an "ass". Did I cry foul? I did not.

I thought your post about you having to pay to run and Goucher and Flanagan having advantages you don't have and therefore they are open for criticism was whiny and immature - not to mention flat out irrelevant - and I called you out on it. You gotta have thick skin around here. What I said to you was mild compared to some stuff I've seen. Toughen up.

Wow Unbelievable wrote:

Shalane prolly coulda gotten second in the 10k

+1.

The Africans made her hurt. Bad.

oldXChasbeen wrote:

Consistency wrote:

Uh huh. Were any of my posts orginally dorected to you?

The answer would be no, so why are you replying to me and calling me names and attacking me?

You're starting the argument with me pal, not the other way around.

This is an open forum, friend. You post on a LRC thread, you open yourself up to criticism from anyone on this board. You called me an "ass". Did I cry foul? I did not.

I thought your post about you having to pay to run and Goucher and Flanagan having advantages you don't have and therefore they are open for criticism was whiny and immature - not to mention flat out irrelevant - and I called you out on it. You gotta have thick skin around here. What I said to you was mild compared to some stuff I've seen. Toughen up.

Funny. Choosing professional athletics as your profession also opens you up to criticism from anyone on this board. You gonna hold them to the same standard you're holding me? Or are you just a hypocrite?

And I think you calling me "whiny and immature" for a factual statement that I made to another poster that was totally relevent if you read the post I replied to makes you an ass. You didn't call me on anything - you just waded in and started calling me names without knowing the full context of the conversation.

You'd be wise to take some of your own advice.

Has anyone noticed that the poster "Karen" hasn't responded to any of the critiques of her OP?

Hello?

I hate when men hating women play the victim card and project their hatred of men by go on and on about how terrible men are to women.

Women have it made: significant opportunities in school and sport. Ability to come in and out of the work force. Ability to stay at home if they wish.

My ex-wife once told me: "If a man is falsely accused of rape and goes to jail it's not a huge deal because so many other guys get off."

Your posts scream "victim pretending to be strong".

Sigh...

Dude, I never said you couldn't criticize a professional athlete on this board. I may do it myself from time to time if it's justified. But I took issue with your stated justification for doing so - that they are privileged athletes with advantages that us rank and file hobby runners don't have and thus are more open to having their Olympic efforts scrutinized.

Your post clearly implied that they wouldn't do as well if they had to put up with all the stuff you have to - i.e, paying race fees, buying shoes, cooking their own meals - which I thought was absurd. Again, they got those advantages by their talent and by putting up for years with the very inconveniences you list.

Was I sarcastic and a little bit of a jerk? Probably. Since you were offended, I apologize.

I'm done here. Fire away. I will give you that last, whiny word. Hehe.

2 cocky for their own good wrote:

All talk and neither one delivered....especially Shalane. Neither one is a world beater. What should they both do now?

Do we have links to articles and interviews prior to the OGs where the ladies in question actually talked themselves up? Were their expectations unreasonable?

And note, at that level you have to be very confident in your ability. If you don't see yourself getting on tha podium then actually doing it is highly unlikely. So that's a caveat to consider before any additional elite bashing goes on here.