Razcko did not overtrain him in high school. Indeed, one of the reasons his 3:53 in high school was so unexpected is that it was done on relatively typical low mileage training.
The problem with staying with Razcko had nothing to do with training or training methods. As others have posted, Razcko is a good coach in the technical sense (a point that others also find hard to digest). But it was a lousy choice for maturation. It was an isolating choice, let's just put it that way.
One of the most reasonable posts on Raczko I've seen on Letsrun. Also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that Webb (supposedly) did a workout the morning of Florida Relays. Although those races were a tough pill to swallow under any circumstances... I'm optimistic because he seems fully healthy for the first time in years.
I can't imagine that most elite -- even national class, not world class -- guys couldn't run these kind of times in a workout, even in a base period. He really seems to lose it when people start going by him, which was a problem even when he was elite. He also looks heavy.
I don't see him being ready for the Trials. Talent does go away, often due to injury but sometimes just to no longer having the drive. Webb was so talented...but look at Ryun's last few years too.
As someone else said on an earlier post, it underscores how special runners with long careers at high levels like Scott or Spivey are, as well as Walker.
The Waterboy wrote:
http://runteamwebb.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/life-on-the-outside/According to his wife, he *almost* had an injury scare for indoor, which is why he dropped out of that 800m, didn't start the 1000m, and didn't do USA indoors. But it was to prevent an injury and his leg is now 100%, and she said that he's healthy and enjoying training with Robby, and that how his races went this past weekend is NOT indicative of how his training has been going
Me thinks he needs a better marketing name. Maybe change his name to: Slow But Hairy, or Kan Beat kindgarden Runners, or Back To High School Times or Still Making $ As a Jogger, or Transplant Chest To Head Hair or ....
There are many example of runner who pushed too hard too soon. Alberto Salazar and Jim Ryun come to mind. They had shorted careers but have amazing accomplishments in those limited years. There is only so much a body can do before it declines. He may have reached that point.
Honestly, how many people do you know personally who can run a 1:54 half mile at the age of the 29. That's what I thought.
Ridiculous argument. How long do u think it takes a 3:46 miler to get back to AT LEAST 1:50/3:57 shape? I'm guessing not long, it's a jog for them. Webb ran plenty of indoor and has been running for awhile. To say he's injured is dumb, he's been running. To say he's coming back slowly is dumb, it does not take this long for that talent to run what he should be running. He ran 3:54 and 1:54. A guy with that talent can take 3 weeks off, roll out of bed and run 1:55. He's either totally running workouts and waiting it out for the right time or he's just not the same guy.
A 1:05 will qual as elite at any half race in the country
I think that Razcko did overtrain Webb actually, but in the sense that he fried his anaerobic system. From what I hear, he could do amazing interval workouts, even on low mileage. I think this is the reason why when he joined Alberto, Webb was enjoying a comeback. Alberto was having Webb train more like a 5k runner, more higher quality aerobic running to restore his anaerobic system that was fried. I think staying with Salazar would have been the better option, less middle distance training and more distance training, even if he wanted to stick with the 1500.
WellWebby wrote:
Ridiculous argument. How long do u think it takes a 3:46 miler to get back to AT LEAST 1:50/3:57 shape? I'm guessing not long, it's a jog for them. Webb ran plenty of indoor and has been running for awhile. To say he's injured is dumb, he's been running. To say he's coming back slowly is dumb, it does not take this long for that talent to run what he should be running. He ran 3:54 and 1:54. A guy with that talent can take 3 weeks off, roll out of bed and run 1:55. He's either totally running workouts and waiting it out for the right time or he's just not the same guy.
No it's not dumb. What's dumb is you thinking that injury and talent have anything to do with each other.
Achilles injuries are highly recurring. Maybe it's been flaring on and off throughout the past few months.
you people need to quit talking about webb being "fat." the guy is far from fat even for his professional running self. he never was an east african body type so take your comments about his weight and go pound sand.
second he has been training consistently since last fall and he stated so several times. he is training through races and his coach is making him enter when he basically can't win. go look up the psychological principle quoted in a recent thread and then recall how everyone has always talked about webb's mental attitude of winning every race. you have to break that mental block to move webb forward. that is what his coach is doing. do you really think alan, himself, would enter a race "ready" to run a 3:54 1500m? get a damn clue you pre-pubescent morons.
"People, talent does NOT go away. Stop worrying about Webb, he will be just fine."
I like your reply. I'm reading a book called "The Emotional Hostage" which teaches a process called Mental Aptitude Patterning (MAP). The process in how it applies to Webb is that one (Webb) has the physical talent to harness the emotional process in continuing his goals. The caveat, or at least theoretically since Webb is the American Mile record holder does that experience create an emotive hostage scenario in furthering his goals? I only thought of that now knowing that harnessing ones talent by balancing the emotional experience can enliven ones (Webb's) progress. And yes "Stop worrying about Webb, he will be just fine." He will. The detractors will just have to get over it.
Explain this idea further please. I feel like this psychological strategy would work with a small child only. Any adult professional runner would understand that they are not racing well due to fatigue from training. I dont see how this would break a mental block.
What doesn't make sense is that he was still good, off of limited training, a year and a half ago. That isn't that long. He beat Rupp in a road 5K, ran 3:35 or whatever... definitely respectable times that looked to set him up for a good 2011.
The early burnout surely would have presented itself as recently as 18 months ago, no?
And, if it is burn out... I would rather have his career before the age of 26 then a career that lasted another 6 years but resulted in never breaking an AR. You peak when you peak. I don't really think there is an early or a late peaking.
If anything, if you start training younger then what is generally done in the US, the BEST time to peak is between 18 and 24 while you still have a lot of testosterone and can recover well. Of course, to really peak then, you probably need to start training seriously at around 10-12 years old.
I don't advocate kids running a ton at 10-12... but hypothetically, with no regard to social norms, growth, etc, from a pure physical perspective, this would make sense. Get in a massive aerobic base pre-teen to late teens and this would allow you to crush a ton of intervals in your late teens while being able to recover properly because of your natural testosterone.
I posted this someplace else, but can't find it now.
A couple months before he set the course record at Boston, Cosmas Ndeti ran a 1:07 half marathon. Hall before running Boston last year ran, what?, a 1:05 half, I think. This happens a lot more often than we think. Something might be wrong with Webb, but we can't conclude that it is because of these races. There a many many reasons for why he ran so slowly. I still think we will see this guy in the OT finals. He may not make the team, but he'll be within an arm's reach of those who do.
Conto wrote:
What doesn't make sense is that he was still good, off of limited training, a year and a half ago. That isn't that long. He beat Rupp in a road 5K, ran 3:35 or whatever... definitely respectable times that looked to set him up for a good 2011.
The early burnout surely would have presented itself as recently as 18 months ago, no?
He did run ok last year, but Salazar also ran well after 1982, but was never the same guy. Salazar ran 27:XX after Boston 82, but only a couple times and then he was done.
Point is, having a few good runs doesn't mean you are back. It could be a good day on a long slide.
Webb needs:
(1) To diet. He's a good 7-10 pounds heavier than in his prime. Of course, dieting is difficult in periods of heavy training. But with enough focus, one can maintain the proper balance of getting enough energy while chopping off 1 pound per week.
(2) Focus on more aerobic work. This is difficult because he only has so much time to get the standard, so he has to stay sharp. Additionally, he has to avoid injury and he appears injury-prone right now. Perhaps the best balance would be to (a) incorporate some pool running to supplement his aerobic fitness (maybe 1-hour fartleks 3-4 times per week) and (b) include at least one "workout" a week incorporating LT running and VO2 max work (maybe 4 miles at 5:00 pace + 2 x 1-mile in 4:20).
Maybe he's just tired, done with all of this but to walk away would be to receive the scorn of the world...so he continues even though he REALLY doesn't want to or have the DESIRE to anymore.
I have yet to see a lot of videos of Webb when he was in his prime, but the general consensus on letsrun is that he seems to have horrible racing anxiety and that said anxiety often affects his racing. Perhaps Webb should see a sports physchologist: it's a very legitimate solution to athletic anxiety and many professional athletes seem to see them.
know the situation wrote:
Razcko did not overtrain him in high school. Indeed, one of the reasons his 3:53 in high school was so unexpected is that it was done on relatively typical low mileage training.
The problem with staying with Razcko had nothing to do with training or training methods.
Read Sub-4, the Razcko method was always over training, maybe the mileage looked "low," but then 2-3 hours of extra stuff like drills, plyometrics, etc, on top of it every day.