Did letsrun ever come to an agreement about stepping on steeple barriers?

xcvbxc wrote:

For someone with poor hurdle form and poor flexibility looking to run around 10:20, is it faster to step on all the barriers in a steeplechase?

How about improving hurdle form and flexibility?

If you have to step on it try to barely skim your heel off the top of the barrier.

Runners that step on the barriers are afraid of hitting them. Get over the fear and you will run faster. I did.

Water Jump wrote:

xcvbxc wrote:

For someone with poor hurdle form and poor flexibility looking to run around 10:20, is it faster to step on all the barriers in a steeplechase?

How about improving hurdle form and flexibility?

If you have to step on it try to barely skim your heel off the top of the barrier.

As I said earlier, I am just running the steeple for fun. I'm post-collegiate and there are only two SCs this year where I live. I have no interest in improving my hurdle form or flexibility.

No. YOU said changing form would be a bad idea. I said to tell someone at some point they will need a certain form so they should always use that form is stupid. Seriously, read your own post again. Then read my response to it. Repeat as necessary until you are up to speed. I think citing the exact philosophy of one the world's best steeple coaches helps my credibility. I also think giving specific speed and acceleration paces helps. I didn't invent this stuff. I learned it. I understand the physics and physiology behind it and briefly explained that here. If you can't understand it, I can't help you. I totally admit calling Malmo out as someone who is just a loud mouth and never has to actually be responsible for the results of his opinions was simply a side not to this. I could list five steeple coaches in the next ten seconds who are better than I am. (And more later but I'd need time.) (Malmo, please have the arrogance to ask me to do it so I can offer you the same deal I did in the first place. Name some guys whom you have coached and I'll knock out the names. Funny how all Malmo has to do is answer a simple question that many have asked over the years - but the question usually gets deleted - and when he refuses to answer it, I'm making stuff up. Yup, that's Malmo logic all right. Bottom line I tried to help a guy out. Remind of what specific advice Malmo gave on this thread and the reasons why that advice is sound. Quote it please.As to oldsteepleguy, the difference in acceleration is the problem, not the acceleration itself. And you are wrong that you need to accelerate to step a barrier. in fact, most of the moderate steeplers who step occasionally step when they have had to chop steps so they don't have the speed needed to hurdle. Also, guys who run under 8:40 don't accelerate to the regular barriers at all, at least they shouldn't. Only the water. The summation of the philosophy is that if you wouldn't sprint for 30 meters 28 times during your flat 3k, you shouldn't during a steeple. A nine minute or under guy doesn't have to SIGNIFICANTLY change his pace. A 9:30 + guy does in order to hurdle.

I totally agree. There are two ways of having credibility. 1) Have a rational, fact based statement - which I tried to do in post one and a few after that.2) Have known accomplishments that will give you credibility.Malmo did not do step one. Until he proves differently, Malmo has never coached any steeplers, much less a 10 minute guy like the OP so he really has no claim to step two. Remember that I never said I wouldn't name the runners, I just asked Malmo for quid pro quo.

JonDCH wrote:

This back and forth over naming names highlights a feature of discussion boards like this - people choose to remain anonymous. It's one of the reasons you have to judge the quality of the information here for yourself. With people like Malmo, and some others willing to be public about real names and with verifiable experience and accomplishment in the sport, there is greater legitimacy. If you choose to remain anonymous, and not name any names, including people with whom you have some acquaintance, preserving your privacy, so be it. But, you can accept that their might be some skepticism applied to your commentary. It doesn't mean what you say is nonsense, but if without names and facts, it's harder to make a forceful statement.

I'm not really thinking about it at all really; I just like to see the debate. This race last year had 4 people in it and was won in 10:26.

Medal Detector wrote:

No. YOU said changing form would be a bad idea. I said to tell someone at some point they will need a certain form so they should always use that form is stupid. Seriously, read your own post again. Then read my response to it. Repeat as necessary until you are up to speed.

I think citing the exact philosophy of one the world's best steeple coaches helps my credibility. I also think giving specific speed and acceleration paces helps. I didn't invent this stuff. I learned it. I understand the physics and physiology behind it and briefly explained that here. If you can't understand it, I can't help you.

Have you ever raced a steeplechase?

altoroad wrote:

Have you ever raced a steeplechase?

Many. I still do. When I could break 9, I hurdled, when I was low nines, I chose on each one depending on my lead up, now that barely break 10 I step every one until the last lap. Every sub 9 guy I've ever coached has been taught to hurdle unless he feels uncomfortable with his lead up. Every high school athlete who runs 6:30 or over for 2k learns to step the barriers first, then how to hurdle when they are fast enough.

Ok, I'll admit I read that one wrong, but it is irrelevant. The number of steps between hurdles is very dependent on speed, whereas anyone running at even a 10:20 pace shouldn't have too much trouble hurdling a steeple barrier. Anyways, my thinking is that steepling the barrier requires you to go higher, and thus wastes energy that could be spent going forward. You seem to swear by it for slower runners because clearing a 36" barrier is apparently too hard for them. I guess different things work for different people, but you didn't need to be so confrontational about it.

Maybe you really can only think of a couple coaches better than you, but you have no proof. For now, I'll trust the guys that are willing to put their record on the line. If that makes me a sheep, then so be it, but at least I don't come off as an arrogant prick. Peace and enjoy the weekend.

Medal Detector wrote:

altoroad wrote:

Have you ever raced a steeplechase?

Many. I still do. When I could break 9, I hurdled, when I was low nines, I chose on each one depending on my lead up, now that barely break 10 I step every one until the last lap. Every sub 9 guy I've ever coached has been taught to hurdle unless he feels uncomfortable with his lead up. Every high school athlete who runs 6:30 or over for 2k learns to step the barriers first, then how to hurdle when they are fast enough.

This is a lot more interesting than citing anonymous all-americans.

You misunderstood one of my points, not necessarily your fault. My point in saying how quickly I could name coaches better than myself was that I don't think I'm the best. There are many better. I seek them out whenever possible. I just think I'm probably better than someone who never coached, especially when he presents ZERO evidence to his side.I guess you need to have an understanding of physics that I mistakenly assumed just about everyone would have. Hurdling 36 inches is incredibly dependent on speed. I can't even begin to understand how that is up for debate. Stepping a barrier actually requires less lift from the ground as you don't need to go over the barrier. Once on the barrier, yes, you raise your center of gravity higher than if you had hurdled but it requires no energy since you are on the barrier at the time. Also remember that stepping a barrier is not like taking a water jump. On a water jump, you want to clear at least nine feet off the barrier, stepping a dry barrier you come down very quickly on the other side. When mastered, you can step a barrier faster than an inefficient hurdler - (like anyone not running sub 9:30 pace).

Medal Detector wrote:

Many. I still do. When I could break 9, I hurdled, when I was low nines, I chose on each one depending on my lead up, now that barely break 10 I step every one until the last lap. Every sub 9 guy I've ever coached has been taught to hurdle unless he feels uncomfortable with his lead up. Every high school athlete who runs 6:30 or over for 2k learns to step the barriers first, then how to hurdle when they are fast enough.

First, you seem to conflate coaching the event with understanding how to compete in the event. You can have a comprehensive understanding of an event, as Malmo does for the steeple, without choosing to teach it to others. It is a ridiculous conceit on your part that those who have not coached may not understand the event better than some who coach. I ran my first steeple as a high school senior at an all-comers meet in 10:04 (hence, my nom de troll). I hurdled all the non-water barriers, although I may have chicken-stepped the approach on one or two. My coach, who was one of the better DII steeple coaches, taught all of the steeplers to hurdle from the beginning. Most of them were low 10s steeplers, but some of us improved to the 9:00 level without changing technique in the process.

Wow, this thread took off while I was away.

OP, so you've got one race tomorrow, and no time to learn anything? If you know you can step on it, and know you can't hurdle, then step on it.

But if you have even two weeks and 15min twice a week, you can learn to hurdle. Just use hurdles, set a notch or two lower on the first session; stepping on those won't work. I have literally seen people "get it" in one 15 minute session.

Personally, I hurdled sub-9 in my youth, and I now do 10:05-10:30 (depending on how old and fat I am each summer) with poor form, but still hurdle. An old friend from college occasionally turns out and runs 11:00 when we're short of a scorer, and he hurdles beautifully. If I "water-jumped" each one (which I know how to do, as it happens once per lap) I'd expend more energy and come down from a greater height.

The really interesting question is how many people would be better off hurdling the water jump ;-) A recent Kenyan innovation but a couple of friends (around 10min) with bigger balls than me have tried it and said it's way easier.

I CAN hurdle; I'm just not good at it. I want to run the fastest time possible tomorrow and I'm interested in hearing opinions on whether I should hurdle or step. I ran it once last year and hurdled about half of them, but couldn't tell which method slowed me down more.

What's the consensus on barefoot steeplechase? Clearly there must be advantages.

xcvbxc wrote:

I CAN hurdle; I'm just not good at it. I want to run the fastest time possible tomorrow and I'm interested in hearing opinions on whether I should hurdle or step. I ran it once last year and hurdled about half of them, but couldn't tell which method slowed me down more.

Hurdling is the fastest way over a barrier. I think that's universally agreed upon.

Likewise, 65 second quarter is faster than a 75 second quarter.

What do these two statements have in common. Just because a person can each of these once, or twice or maybe even three times, it doesn't mean they should if they want to expend their energy wisely.

Hurdling takes more effort than stepping a hurdle. The slower you are, the more true this is.

I find the steeplechase an incredibly taxing event and have no desire to make it more tiring than it already is. If each barrier concerns about 10 meters of your effort, that means you have 2700 or so meters to run while not bothered by a non water barrier. I would focus a lot more on being as fresh as possible for that vast majority of the race than how to shave a few tenths of a second of at each hurdle.

I don't get on much, but I've been reading all this stuff and I am curious who the All-Americans are and if they are recent in the ncaa?

The answer is no. Letsrun has not come to an agreement about stepping on steeple barriers.

Shaun Creighton, the Aussie record holder at 8:16, stepped on the barriers.