SC had steroids and is still linked with EAA & IAAF PED usage.
SC had steroids and is still linked with EAA & IAAF PED usage.
Do you have the actual 400m time for Ryun?
i've never seen any quote of an open 400quote from another bbhttp://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34897&p=677988&hilit=ryun+relay#p677988
Ryun ran 46.9r not too long after finishing up a 3:55.8 mile earlier in the same meet. Yes, it was on dirt. His own coach felt Ryun was capable of at least 46 flat in the 440 if he put in speed training
i believe this quote is in the video :
http://www.runningmovies.com/title/022.htmdo note that 46.0 on dirt for an open 440 is maybe for 400 on synthetic
46.0 * ( 400/402.3 ) = 45.7
then knock off 1s to synthetic -> 44.7 !!
his coach reckoned he mighta got down to 45-flat if he had trained for it, which is no big stretch as coe's pa said same thing for his boy
off season, so i'll throw up some interesting possibilities
the mention of aouita is interesting
in '85, i reckon
48.2 / 1'44.0 -> 3'28.0 , 4'45.2 , 7'24.4 , 12'55.6 , 27'26.2
in '88 he went for speed & dropped 5k
maybe line of fit :
47.5 / 1'43.3 -> 3'27.8 ! , 4'45.7 , 7'26.8 , 13'02.8 , 27'49.3
main thing i'd say, is that if he hadn't got injured in run up/at seoul, aside from 800 ( where he mighta done better than bronze ), he couda really blown away that poor 1500 race - in theory, that mighta been his best 1500 career form
ventolin^3 wrote:
Raptured wrote:Ventolin, your calculator definitely is a great tool, but plugging in a 1:41 for Ryun seems a bit ridiculous. I'll agree that he was a phenomenal runner, but there's no way he was good for sub 3:26. Not even close.he ran 3'51-flat on dirt completely solo & uneven pace - a 59s lap in there - he also said he wasn't tired after finishing, so maybe there was a bit more to give
3'51 :
knock off 1s/lap for dirt to '70s synthetic -> 3'47
knock off 1s/lap for no drafting to bell -> 3'44
knock off 1++s for uneven pace & still having something in the tank at the finish ->
<<3'26.5 as prelim estimate
with anything like 46s speed ( hicham himself is quoted as having "48s speed" ), that will get you 1'41 potential in '67
1 sec a lap from cinders to synthetic is far too generous. There is absolutely NO scientific evidence that the conversion is this big.
In 68 Hines ran 10.03 on cinders/dirt in Sacramento in June, which was at sea level. Under your conversion, that should be worth 9.78 on synthetic. By the Olympics one would expect him to be even faster, perhaps 9.72. And that doesn't even take the advantage of altitude into consideration!
He ran 9.95 ~ just 0.08 faster in Mexico on synthetic!
9.78 wouldn't be beaten until 2005, 37 years later! Are you suggesting that on that day in Sacramento, Hines produced a performance unequalled for 37 years?
In 68 Tommie Smith ran 20.14 for 200m (20.26 - 220yds) at Provo on dirt in June at an altitude of 1300m and a tail wind of 0.9m/s.
At the Olympic trials 3 months later, when in better form and running on synthetic at an altitude of 2200m, he was actually slower! at 20.18, despite also having a stronger following wind (1.89m/s).
Surely he should have been more than 0.5 secs faster at the trials of Echo Summit, based on the track surface alone? With extra altitude and a stronger tail wind, that should be more like 0.7 secs. But he was actually 0.04 slower.
Based on this evidence the conversion per lap would be 0.5 sec per lap at most.
Ryun's 3:51.1 was hand timed, so more likely 3:51.3 using 80's automatic timing.
His 1/4 s were 58.9, 59.7, 58.7 & 53.8, which is worth a second faster evened out. That brings it to 3:50.3. Take 2.0 secs off (0.5 x 4) for conversion to synthetic and we get 3:48.3. Take another 3 secs off for lack of drafting to bell and that equates to ~ 3:45.3, / by 1.079 for conversion to 1500m and you get 3:28.8.
As for "having something left in the tank at the finish", that is not backed up by the statistics of the race. He went through 1500m in 3:36.0, meaning his last 109m was 15.1, which is c. 13.85 for the last 100m. His last 400m was 53.5, which is 13.38 pace per 100m. So he was actually slowing down in the home straight and unable to hold on to the pace he'd had for the previous 300m.
Ryun was an incredible runner, a decade or more ahead of his time, but the evidence suggests a potential of 3:28.8 in a perfect world, which is a long way from the 3:25 you have suggested before.
Ryun ran 46.9 for 440 in 1966 not 47. He also ran the last lap of a 1500 faster than just about anyone which was likely done on a crappy track.[/quote]
According to Mel Watman's Encyclopedia of Athletics and T&FN's "The Milers" his fastest ever leg was "47 flat" ("47.0"). But even if it was 46.9, that's not much difference now is it? lol. A 46.9 relay isn't the same as a flat 45.8
deanouk wrote:
Ryun ran 46.9 for 440 in 1966 not 47. He also ran the last lap of a 1500 faster than just about anyone which was likely done on a crappy track.
According to Mel Watman's Encyclopedia of Athletics and T&FN's "The Milers" his fastest ever leg was "47 flat" ("47.0"). But even if it was 46.9, that's not much difference now is it? lol. A 46.9 relay isn't the same as a flat 45.8[/quote]
The Jim Ryun Story by Corder Nelson, page 175
"Timmons said, "Like everyone else, I was thrilled with Jim's great mile race, but even more exciting was Jim's come from behind anchor leg in the freshman mile relay. He blazed a 46.9 quarter to bring his team home."
Additionally, it is confirmed as 46.9 in the documentary Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler.
1) It is 46.9 for 440 yards, equal to about 46.6 for 400 meters
2) It was on a crappy track, worth 1 second faster over a 70s synthetic surface
3) Add a half second or so for relay - open and you get 46 seconds.
4) He ran this after a 3:55.8 mile
5) He was better in 67 than he was in 66 which is when he ran this race.
ventolin^3 wrote:
i've never seen any quote of an open 400
quote from another bb
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34897&p=677988&hilit=ryun+relay#p677988Ryun ran 46.9r not too long after finishing up a 3:55.8 mile earlier in the same meet. Yes, it was on dirt. His own coach felt Ryun was capable of at least 46 flat in the 440 if he put in speed trainingi believe this quote is in the video :
http://www.runningmovies.com/title/022.htm
Well the link you give has 2 glaring errors straight away. It says his Mile WR was 3:50.9, when it was 3:51.1, and it gives his last 400m in his 3:33.1 as 53.3, when it was 53.6. So I don't hold out much faith with the accuracy of the rest of it.
Ryun's relay split may have been quoted on a message board by a poster as 46.9, but I have the same race given as 47.0 by 2 eminent statisticians who were editors of T&FN (Cordner Nelson) & AW (Mel Watman) at the time of the run. I'm not going to quibble over 0.1 sec!
Even if it were 46.9, that's 46.6 for 400m, 47.1 for 400m open.
When will you get it into your head that dirt is not 1 sec slower per lap than synthetic. It may be on a poorly kept track in very poor weather conditions in a 5 or 10k, but not in a hot climate over 1 lap. It's 0.5 at most. That gives Ryun about a 46.6 open 400m on synthetic that day.
That's v. fast, but not the 45.8 as you claim, and not as fast as Coe's 45.6 after a 1:44.0.
Coe also ran a 1:45.0 800 and a 46.4 relay leg on the same afternoon on the DIRT track of Loughborough in 1980, yet only finished the year with a fastest of 1:44.7.
And just because Ryun improved from 3:51.3 to 3:51.1 from 66 to 67, that does not prove he would have been faster over 800m in 67. His endurance was better in 67 than the year before, but it doesn't equate that his speed over 400 and 800 would have also improved.
clearing the bs up wrote:
deanouk wrote:Ryun ran 46.9 for 440 in 1966 not 47. He also ran the last lap of a 1500 faster than just about anyone which was likely done on a crappy track.
According to Mel Watman's Encyclopedia of Athletics and T&FN's "The Milers" his fastest ever leg was "47 flat" ("47.0"). But even if it was 46.9, that's not much difference now is it? lol. A 46.9 relay isn't the same as a flat 45.8
The Jim Ryun Story by Corder Nelson, page 175
"Timmons said, "Like everyone else, I was thrilled with Jim's great mile race, but even more exciting was Jim's come from behind anchor leg in the freshman mile relay. He blazed a 46.9 quarter to bring his team home."
Additionally, it is confirmed as 46.9 in the documentary Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler.
1) It is 46.9 for 440 yards, equal to about 46.6 for 400 meters
2) It was on a crappy track, worth 1 second faster over a 70s synthetic surface
3) Add a half second or so for relay - open and you get 46 seconds.
4) He ran this after a 3:55.8 mile
5) He was better in 67 than he was in 66 which is when he ran this race.[/quote]
Oh well! Seems that it improved by 0.1 over the years, because the same author, Cordner Nelson wrote in "The Milers" (taken from the pages of T&FN) on P. 316, ..."at the Kansas Relays,...On Saturday,....he ran 3:55.8.....He ended the day with a fast 47-flat relay leg"
I'll go with your 46.9 though. Thanks Ventolin!
deanouk wrote:1 sec a lap from cinders to synthetic is far too generous. There is absolutely NO scientific evidence that the conversion is this big
there is no scientific evidence for 0.1s/lap or 2s/lap either
moron
it is personal experience from running on quality dirt/synthetic in '70s & observation
In 68 Hines ran 10.03 on cinders/dirt in Sacramento in June, which was at sea level. Under your conversion, that should be worth 9.78 on synthetic. By the Olympics one would expect him to be even faster, perhaps 9.72. And that doesn't even take the advantage of altitude into consideration!
He ran 9.95 ~ just 0.08 faster in Mexico on synthetic!
9.78 wouldn't be beaten until 2005, 37 years later! Are you suggesting that on that day in Sacramento, Hines produced a performance unequalled for 37 years?
idiot
do some research
the usatf didn't trust the auto results from a new/unproven provider & officially gave it as
9.9ht
that means we go with standard 0.24s conversion
-> 10.14 on dirt
-> knock off 0.25s for synthetic =
9.89
which with a 0.9m/s wind is quite reasonable, if it was race of his life - which trials usually are - see last 1/2 dozen trial results
In 68 Tommie Smith ran 20.14 for 200m (20.26 - 220yds) at Provo on dirt in June at an altitude of 1300m and a tail wind of 0.9m/s.
At the Olympic trials 3 months later, when in better form and running on synthetic at an altitude of 2200m, he was actually slower! at 20.18, despite also having a stronger following wind (1.89m/s).
Surely he should have been more than 0.5 secs faster at the trials of Echo Summit, based on the track surface alone? With extra altitude and a stronger tail wind, that should be more like 0.7 secs. But he was actually 0.04 slower
moron
he ran 19.83A converted to 20.09
he ran curve easy as possible because of hamstring injury so serious he mighta withdrawn the final
on top of that he eased off celebrating, costing 0.1+
at very slowest that was a 19.90 basic & likely nearer 19.80
& again the provo time was not credited officially as auto 20.14 but 20.1ht which is nearer 20.34 auto with standard conversion
that gives
19.84 with +0.9
Based on this evidence the conversion per lap would be 0.5 sec per lap at most
moron
yours is based on credibility or lack thereof of auto times
Ryun's 3:51.1 was hand timed, so more likely 3:51.3 using 80's automatic timing.
His 1/4 s were 58.9, 59.7, 58.7 & 53.8, which is worth a second faster evened out That brings it to 3:50.3. Take 2.0 secs off (0.5 x 4) for conversion to synthetic and we get 3:48.3. Take another 3 secs off for lack of drafting to bell and that equates to ~ 3:45.3, / by 1.079 for conversion to 1500m and you get 3:28.8
moron
try 1s/lap for dirt
if you never ran on both dirt/synthetic in same form, then tough for you kid
now we get
(3'51.1 - 1.0 + 0.2 - 4 - 3)/1.08
( t&f use 1.08 not some nonsense 1.079 )
->3'26.75
then consider uneveness may be more than 1s & his quote after that he coud
"go out & run another mile"
As for "having something left in the tank at the finish", that is not backed up by the statistics of the race. He went through 1500m in 3:36.0, meaning his last 109m was 15.1, which is c. 13.85 for the last 100m. His last 400m was 53.5, which is 13.38 pace per 100m. So he was actually slowing down in the home straight and unable to hold on to the pace he'd had for the previous 300m
moron
he'd been driving from 1/2 way out, slowly picking up & blasting last 1/4
that was a solo run with last 2 laps run in a vaccuum
idiot
in addition, he was running in lane 1 of a progressively more chewed up track
Ryun was an incredible runner, a decade or more ahead of his time, but the evidence suggests a potential of 3:28.8 in a perfect world, which is a long way from the 3:25 you have suggested before.
moron
there is no "evidence" you provide
he wasn't even likely at his peak in his mile run of ~ 3'25 calibre in '70s
his peak was likely when running against the reigning 3k/ex-5k wr holder & biggest rival keino in the 3'33.1
deanouk wrote:A 46.9 relay isn't the same as a flat 45.8
imbecile
if you do the arithmetic properly & account for junior going to senior
it can
deanouk wrote:
Oh well! Seems that it improved by 0.1 over the years, because the same author, Cordner Nelson wrote in "The Milers" (taken from the pages of T&FN) on P. 316, ..."at the Kansas Relays,...On Saturday,....he ran 3:55.8.....He ended the day with a fast 47-flat relay leg"
I'll go with your 46.9 though. Thanks Ventolin!
It didn't improve over the years, it is what he ran. Straight from Jim Ryun's mouth in the documentary Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler.
deanouk wrote:Well the link you give has 2 glaring errors straight away. It says his Mile WR was 3:50.9, when it was 3:51.1, and it gives his last 400m in his 3:33.1 as 53.3, when it was 53.6. So I don't hold out much faith with the accuracy of the rest of it
moron
buy the vid if you want accuracy
Ryun's relay split may have been quoted on a message board by a poster as 46.9, but I have the same race given as 47.0 by 2 eminent statisticians who were editors of T&FN (Cordner Nelson) & AW (Mel Watman) at the time of the run. I'm not going to quibble over 0.1 sec!
moron
neither of whom were official statisticians for the meet
especially not your uneducated watman
Even if it were 46.9, that's 46.6 for 400m, 47.1 for 400m open
where do you get this crap ???
open 400 from relay is 0.7 - 0.8
then consider above was on dirt with 1s/lap to synthetic & after a 3'55 mile
moron
learn to think
When will you get it into your head that dirt is not 1 sec slower per lap than synthetic
imbecile
you were hardly born in the '70s - at best in diapers in '79
you have no clue what dirt to synthetic is
It may be on a poorly kept track in very poor weather conditions in a 5 or 10k
drivel
moron
i'm talking 1500/mile
but not in a hot climate over 1 lap
idiot
how does hot weather turn a dirt track into near '70s synthetic
impress me moron
It's 0.5 at most. That gives Ryun about a 46.6 open 400m on synthetic that day
moron
tell me of your personal experience of dirt/synthetic runs in '70s
it's 1s/lap
that's ~ 46-flat in '66 & he was growing in '67, evidenced by huge smash of 1500wr, so this woud be faster
That's v. fast, but not the 45.8 as you claim
moron
yes it is
and not as fast as Coe's 45.6 after a 1:44.0
moron
what subjective proof are you offer ?
idiot
you offering lactate levels for coe's 1'44.0 & ryun's 3'55+ ??
imbecile
you offer drivel
Coe also ran a 1:45.0 800 and a 46.4 relay leg on the same afternoon on the DIRT track of Loughborough in 1980, yet only finished the year with a fastest of 1:44.7
you are more of a moron than i thought feasible
coe '80 is likely to have been prelim
46.0/1'42.0 -> 3'28.3
off course he didn't endure perfectly to 1500 back then, but low-3'29 was likely
he shouda been low-1'42 at worst
he screwed up 800 when likely 1.25s quicker than ovett & at least 1s quicker over 1500 - but he got gold
And just because Ryun improved from 3:51.3 to 3:51.1 from 66 to 67, that does not prove he would have been faster over 800m in 67. His endurance was better in 67 than the year before, but it doesn't equate that his speed over 400 and 800 would have also improved.
moron
1500 is main event
he smashed elliot's wr by 2.5s
in '66 i'd prelim
46.1 / 1'42.0 -> 3'28.0 , 3'45.1
in '67 i'd prelim
45.9 / 1'41.0 -> 3'25.1 , 3'42.3
his 400 may have only improved fractionally, but his 800 had to by a lot
I couldn't disagree more with your assertion that the kick in a 1500m is related to what your 400m time is, and your dismissal of Ovett due to his paltry 47 proves that you are misguided on this to the max.
ventolin^3 wrote:
kick essentially means what 400 you are bringing to a slow race
i'd offer :
coe - 45.7/45.8
ryun - 45.8/46.0
cram - 46.2/46.3
noah - 46.3
asbel - 46.9/47.0
ovett - 47.0/47.1
morceli - 47.5
hicham - 47.7
bernie - 47.8/48.0
aouita - 48.0/48.2
keino - 48.4
this is pretty much more or less what i'd expect the order to be in a slow 1500, say 3'35 - 3'40 pace to bell, with a mass sprint by the bunch at the bell ( with some tweaks )
Skuj wrote:I couldn't disagree more with your assertion that the kick in a 1500m is related to what your 400m time is
in champs, which are inevitably slow to the bell, someone usually makes a move then
or are you so stoopid that you don't consider this significant ???
and your dismissal of Ovett due to his paltry 47 proves that you are misguided on this to the max
no
his tactical acumen got him big winning streak
his peak may have been '78
47.0 / 1'43.3 -> 2'12.9 , 3'29.5 , 4'49.0 , 7'33.9 , 8'10.8 , 13'19.3
ventolin^3 wrote:
in champs, which are inevitably slow to the bell, someone usually makes a move then
or are you so stoopid that you don't consider this significant ???
Saying that a "slow" 1100m followed by a 400m kick is directly related to what one does in a 400m is preposterous. Sure, 2:50 to the bell is easy for the top guys, but there are so many physiological factors that dictate how they got there, how they were affected, and 400m speed has very little bearing on what would happen over the last lap. The top guys have certain strengths and weaknesses. 2:50 at the bell isn't the same thing for every 3:29 guy, 3:40 guy, or a guy who can do a standalone 46 or 49 400m. You put up tons of numbers in bold, insult everyone, and yet your thinking on this is completely linear and through a straw.
you offer drivel
here is hicham '98
47.7 /1'42.8 -> 2'11.5 , 3'25.4 , 4'41.7 , 7'18.5 , 12'44.8
clearly his endurance didn't last to 3k in '98
offer me something or f*ck off
ventolin^3 wrote:
,offer me something or f*ck off
Is this how n iggers argue?