800 is a chess game more then other races
he knows when to go or hold back more the us turkey trotters
800 is a chess game more then other races
he knows when to go or hold back more the us turkey trotters
I can't imagine how much shit Symmonds would be getting right now if he had swung wide and ended up tanking. Bottom line is that in the split second he had he decided the better option was to stay and hope that something opened up.
Symmonds looks at his best this year, got out of his usual comfort zone by going out in 24, moved up intelligently by 400m from last, and had his shot with 150. Obviously, at that point he had to avoid the box by taking a risk or stay in lane 1 and hope that it would open up, as it did. The last 150 goes by very fast and even if he had held it together for 130, it might have meant a medal. I like his chances for a bronze next year. But there's that 1:44 Kenyan 'youth', plus Kaki and Rudisha, not to mention Borz and others, so it'll be chancy once again.
Here's a guy who came from a Catholic school in Boise (same graduating class as my cousin Molly at Bishop Kelly HS), ran at a D3 college, and now he's the best 800 runner in the country!
Nick is being waaaay too hard on himself I think.
Nick AWESOME at the World Championships, and he has achieved something that is INCREDIBLE. Look at all the guys who graduated from HS in that 2001-2002 era: Ryan Hall, Dathan Ritzenhein, Alan Webb, etc....
Since graduating from HS, who has finished highest in the standings at the World Championships or Olympics? NICK SYMMONDS!
Nick's going to use this self-perceived "failure" to channel his energy towards the Olympics.
Sprint Geezer wrote:
Let me say first that I like Nick Symmonds, A LOT.
He's a heck of a better runner than I ever was, or will be.
But his mentality is EXACTLY why Americans are NOT winning like some think they should.
"It cost me my lane and cost me my whole race."
Bullcrap, Nick. Stop externalizing. YOUR actions, and your actions alone, cost you the race.
"I thought when he was coming up on my shoulder, "I've got to hold him off. I've got to hold him off""
Then why DIDN'T you, Nick? This is precisely the moment in time where you failed. Listen to your heart, take control, do what you FEEL, NOT what you THINK.
"To do so would have meant kicking from 150-160 meters out which also would have cost me the race."
You don't know that, and you lacked the courage to react and rise to the occasion of winning later in the race. You did not push yourself, you were conservative rather than going for the win. It was a rather slow race, wasn't it? Maybe you could have kicked from 150m out and won, but you will never KNOW this as a fact--you may have decided this to be true, but you will never KNOW for sure.
That is what courage is all about, Nick--going into the unknown, doing something that doesn't seem to make sense at the time, but which forces you to adapt and do something of which you never believed yourself capable.
Talk to anybody who's ever had a real breakthrough performance, and they will tell you this. Talk to Amantle Montsho. Talk to Kirani James. They will tell you. They didn't take "no" for an answer. You did.
You show us that you understand that this was your failure when you say that "you just didn't create the space for yourself", but you don't indicate that you understand WHY you didn't create the space for yourself.
It's because you lack the sheer desire to win, and the courage to throw caution to the wind and let something extraordinary happen.
Too bad, because many believe you really could have medalled. I'd love to see you medal at the Olympics--and if you do, I'll make sure to write a glowing review on this board, maybe even on this thread. Nothing beats redemption.
I thought it was a good post.
Are you serious. He gotta stop believing he entitled. This race aint a race in the US buddy. People will pass u on the turn. Symonds picked where he wanted to be and he paid for it. Tried to muscle back and Lewandowski shut him down with a good bump. He was never the same after that. And trust me Nick, everybody saw that and now they know u can't take a bump. This is always the bad rap on American 800m runners, can't take a bump! Mr Softee, Mr Softee, Mr Softee, they got a lot more bumps coming, now that everyone knows.
Do you honestly think people are giving bumps to the guy in third place because he might slightly slow down? How does bumping the guy who isn't going to win help you win?
bobonuts wrote:
In music though, they don't like it when you finish in front of everyone else, or after everyone else.
Exactly. Not to mention that a piano recital performance is a static, unchanging event, while athletic performance, because competition exists, is a dynamic event, not some rote memorized activity. Athletics such as those required of Solinsky at this level of competition require split second responses to constantly changing race conditions. The two activities don't even rely on the same regions of the brain to complete. Totally different neurological functions.
But try telling that to some desperate to be noticed, middle-aged hobby-jogger lady whose "racing" history is comprised of a couple of small town turkey trots and a few laps around her neighborhood track.
Meant to write Symmonds, not Solinsky. Concept remains the same.
LL Cool J wrote:I can't imagine how much shit Symmonds would be getting right now if he had swung wide and ended up tanking.
This is the point. I'm all in favour of post-race analysis and learning from mistakes, but you also have to understand that decisions taken in the context of a race only produce probabilities, not deterministic outcomes. Sometimes you can make the right decision and still get the wrong outcomes; other times it's the other way around.
How many other threads are there right now where people are yelling and screaming about Andrew Wheating or Hannah England running too wide on the curves during their heats? Symmonds made a decision that in many cases turns out to be the smart one: NOT swinging way wide at the very beginning of the final turn. Stay tight, save it for the final straightaway and hope for holes to open up -- it's what plenty of coaches would tell you. As it turns out, the holes didn't open up and Symmonds then decided he had to go wide, which cost him.
In the end, as others -- including he himself -- have pointed out, he probably would have been better off kicking early to stay ahead of the Pole, or waiting longer on the inside for an opening in the last 50m. His choices didn't turn out well, but neither of them were irrational or obviously wrong (unless you're playing with the benefit of hindsight).
Should he learn from the experience? Of course. The interview indicates that he's already learning from it. But if you think the relevant lesson is "Have more courage and unleash the animal inside," then you have a very, very simplistic view of middle-distance racing.
Oliver Sacked the Quarterback wrote:Not to mention that a piano recital performance is a static, unchanging event, ....
If you truly believe this, you are a fool who has no idea what is involved in a musical performance. But I think you're just trolling...
ventolin^3 wrote:
bobonuts wrote:I have no idea what your point is.I mentioned Doubell because he was not a chance pre-olympics, raced well to put himself in it at 150 to go, and let it loose to win.
err...
because next next most consideration after actual result is what their absolute intrinsic ability was at the time
( & doubell was long way behind at 500 - 600 in strung out out race, so it's crap about 150m tactical - he just ran evenly as he couud )
too difficult a concept for ya ???
Actually I think you're a fckwit. Simple enough for you/?
You must be English. Esoteric irrelevant views. I'd love to meet you in one of your little English pubs. You'd be more polite. Smarmy, but polite. Smarter than everyone else. ;-)
Sprint Geezer wrote:
You think he was red lining, in what possibly for him wasn't a particularly fast race?
Plus, again, he didn't need to do an all-out "sprint", as you call it, at that point. It would have been sufficient to assert position, and to do that all he needed was a short burst or some big elbows.
ah yes, a 1:45 feels like a brisk morning jog compared to a 1:43.
ah yes, i forgot only sprint geezer and people who race out of blocks know how to "sprint".
sprint geezer reshapes vocabulary as he sees fit.
sprint geezer reshapes the matrix as he sees fit.
asedas wrote:
I agree. But he needs to make a stronger move from 300-400m. That's where he can have an advantage - letting the leaders go too fast for the first 200 and then catching back up to them by 400. He can be right on their asses using less energy through efficient splits.
He shouldn't be last at the bell.
^This. Symmonds acknowledged that was his fastest ever split at 200m. While he had no way of knowing how the next 200m would go (it's nice to have the comfort of hindsight), if he had gone out slightly slower for the first 200m, then made up ground very gradually over the next 300m, he could've had more kick left in him to start a move earlier than he'd be inclined -- say at 150m, and have a chance at 2nd or 3rd.
I think he knew he couldn't start his move at 150m in this race, because the first 200m had taken too much out of him. VERY smart pacing by Rudisha, btw.
[This made me think of the 400m, in which Merritt surged too much too early off the last curve, then died in the last 60m. He looked like his legs were tying up.]
While Symmonds is no Borzakovsky (Yuri's legs are longer & stride is much longer), they both tend to race the same way, relying on a strong finishing kick. I recall a race by Borz about 8-10 years ago (maybe it was his first Oly gold, I can't remember) in which he was in dead last at 400m -- not just last, but wayyyyyy behind the next to last guy -- and then pulled into contact over the next 200m, before mounting his long-stride kick to win it over the final 200m, blowing by people on the last curve.
If you know your comparative advantage is the finishing kick, why kill it by trying to stay with a too fast opening 200m? You just have to have faith that they'll come back to you. [Again, hindsight so conveniently allows me to say this; in the heat of the race, I'd have probably done what Symmonds did too, and go out to fast in hopes of not being out of it before the final lap.]
Anyway, I loved Symmonds' post-race interview. I think he wishes he could have this one back for a do-over -- but I also think we'll see a much more aggressive & risk-taking Symmonds next year. His window is closing, and he must take some big chances. I love his smarts, I love his heart, I love his power, I am a BIG fan.
That said, the last 3 races that Rudisha has run, he looks like he is barely jogging. Man, that dude has some nasty-good running mechanics & talent. His arm-pump form is a thing of beauty, reminds me of a 200m sprinter. He is just so damn relaxed in his final kick, with an insanely strong stride. I really do think he can break 1:40.
Seb Coe would struggle to break 12.0 out of blocks!
Hey doofus, why do you write this crap on so many threads?
What was ACTUALLY said was:
"Maybe your beloved Coe is one of the few who was a natural 11-second 100m guy from the blocks, but he didn't exhibit that ability in that race on youtube."
0/10
Mrs. M wrote:
[
If you truly believe this, you are a fool who has no idea what is involved in a musical performance. But I think you're just trolling...
Got your back on this one.
ventolin^3 wrote:
only an idiot kicks off the bend in lane 2 when 160 - 180 out & running an extra 2m compared to guys in lane 1
Well, an extra 2m would have left him a lot better off than having to "stop and go out" (his words), right?
Ventolin, it's well known here that you haven't run competitively in your life. Your analyses are often sound, but whenever you try to put yourself in the head of an actual athlete (e.g. when you talked about "carb loading" for a 1500), you look like an idiot. Stick to what you know.
Whenever you read anything written by Sprint Geezer - remember these immortal words:
"To get down to a 10.07 an athlete must be able to run around 10.5 with essentially no sprint training.
While Rudisha has essentially no sprint training, he is nowhere near 10.5
And not only is he nowhere near 10.5, he would be hard-pressed to run a 12.5 from blocks."
Source:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4120166&page=3
drivelman wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:only an idiot kicks off the bend in lane 2 when 160 - 180 out & running an extra 2m compared to guys in lane 1
Well, an extra 2m would have left him a lot better off than having to "stop and go out" (his words), right?
Ventolin, it's well known here that you haven't run competitively in your life. Your analyses are often sound, but whenever you try to put yourself in the head of an actual athlete (e.g. when you talked about "carb loading" for a 1500), you look like an idiot. Stick to what you know.
___________________________________________________________
What is it that he knows. All I've seen from his is shit he makes up and tries to pass off as fact.
Yes its clear he never raced.