Sad story from the 1988 Men's Olympic Trials 1500m

This is aimed at you and GUH.

It's very simple. You have to take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't have the self control to stop after a couple of drinks, then you have to have the self control to not start. Either way, it's a self control issue.

The vast majority of people can drink alcohol and live healthy productive lives. Alcohol is not some evil omnipotent entity that forces you to do its bidding. Richie Martinez is a drunk because every time he decides to start drinking he decides he's going to be a drunk. The booze didn't make him take the first drink. Society didn't make him take the first drink. Culture didn't make him take the first drink. He did!

You guys are weenies, not because you have a problem with alcohol, but because you don't think people should be held responsible for the things they do. You'd rather blame some outside factor and declare the responsible person a victim. What happened to Martinez isn't tragic, it's the logical outcome of his actions. The tragedy is what he did to his family by being irresponsible.

I feel bad for him, but even worse for his parents. You want your child to grow up, be happy and independent. In this case, they have been worrying about their son every day for the past 46 years. The worry has never gone away. If it has, then it was replaced by guilt.

There is nothing that they could have done. It's obvious that their son is either ADHD or manic depressive or an alcoholic or all of the above. He has been that way all of his life (he only found out as a teenager that he was an alcoholic).

The hurt must be awful for the parents since they have no control over the situation...

Blowing.Rock Master wrote:

You guys are weenies, not because you have a problem with alcohol, but because you don't think people should be held responsible for the things they do.

At this point I can only conclude that you are not just daft, but on the perlious edge of being mentally deficient in a clinically significant way. Alternatively, given your handle, you may just be a typical Appalachian hillbilly.

I said nothing remotely hinting at the idea that drunks abdicate responsibility for their actions -- in fact, I stated the exact opposite:

Blowing Chunks Masshole wrote:

This is not to excuse anyone's behavior under the influence

You got one thing right: When someone who is presently sober and knows she has a drinking problem chooses to take a drink anyway, then that person can't blame addiction for picking up that drink. That is a decision problem, a thought disorder, a f*ckit attitude. But to pretend that everyone who has a few in them reacts to ethanol the same way and is capable of making the same decisions is ludicrous. If you see this as excusing anyone's drunken idiocy, then you're one of the many dumbasses out there incapable of nuanced thought, and I give up.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

So let's see here, unless one can say, unequivocally and absolutely that " ALL heath experts state that for ALL people ________ has positive health effects ALL the time", you ain't buying it?

Another moron who lives in a world of black and white. My point is that no one with any confidence in his opinion would seed it with so much doubt. There is a lot of territory between "Scientists ESTIMATE that MAYBE MODERATE drinking MIGHT have some health benefits for SOME people" and the bullshit you wrote above. Again, I am not a sadist and won't try to explain this concept further.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

I'll take my advice from the people that have spent their lives studying this, not from some anonymous scummerville kid who calls himself "masshole". Or do you think I should reassess my policy on that?

Careful -- I just might be one of those very people. And as a further testament to your AD/HD inclinations, I will point out that I never claimed to be from Somerville.

You should have quit before you even started in here, m'man.

To DUH and Blowing Chunks, wondering if you two had a relative or knew someone with an alcohol problem. Both seem very hostile in your responses. Just an observation. With that said, I do believe people can be responsible when drinking. Not all folks but plenty out there. Besides, you two might benefit in having a drink or two. Might help you relax a bit? Again, just a suggestion. No pressure involved. Just having an adult civil conversation.

I am coherent wrote:

To DUH and Blowing Chunks, wondering if you two had a relative or knew someone with an alcohol problem. Both seem very hostile in your responses. Just an observation. With that said, I do believe people can be responsible when drinking. Not all folks but plenty out there. Besides, you two might benefit in having a drink or two. Might help you relax a bit? Again, just a suggestion. No pressure involved. Just having an adult civil conversation.

I don't think GUH is hostile, I think he's probably inebriated on 90-proof Jesus Juice.

As for me, I do have relatives who are or were drunks. I don't feel any hostility as a result (I do like tweaking Sir Lance-lot's balls because he GETS so DAMNEDEMPHATIC!!!, just sadness. I have seen otherwise decent people who, once they had a skinful, would gladly f*ck up their and others lives for one more drink, and one more after that. They all had chances and the last thing I would do is excuse them...yes, most people can indeed relax with a few drinks. And that's sorta my point, BRM seems to think that just because he may be able to put the plug in the jug whenever he thinks he's had enough, everyone can. Why is it that some people can eat one bite of ice cream and others have to eat the whole 1/2 gallon? Is it because they don't care that they weigh 400 pounds and can't walk? Are they "weak?" Those of us who can stop at points other people can't (food, drugs, gambling, whatever) indulge ourselves with notions of moral superiority, but I just think there is more to it than that. Peace.

You misunderstand.

Yes, Richie Martinez and every other drunkard made their choices to take the drink and gamble all they hold dear. He deserves to face the consequences of these actions.

However, that does not detract from the fact that the existence/ widespread use of alcohol is a huge problem in today's world. We are all enticed, even encouraged, to "moderately drink" to make us feel good, have fun, party, or even improve our health... and this is wrong.

The problem lies with all parties: the makers, sellers, buyers, consumers, and profiteers of alcohol. I am not trying to "blame some outside factor and declare the responsible person a victim," I'm trying to tell people how not to follow his footsteps.

Don't give me that attitude, "siree." There is the good and the bad, and when the bad far outweighs the good in something, it ought to be eliminated.

You mention 26000 fewer strokes and heart attacks from alcohol consumption, when good diet, exercise, weight loss, and proper stress relief are much surer prevention methods.

And don't worry about me: I have never drunk a sip of that cursed liquid, and never plan to.

I am coherent wrote:

To DUH and Blowing Chunks, wondering if you two had a relative or knew someone with an alcohol problem. Both seem very hostile in your responses. Just an observation. With that said, I do believe people can be responsible when drinking. Not all folks but plenty out there. Besides, you two might benefit in having a drink or two. Might help you relax a bit? Again, just a suggestion. No pressure involved. Just having an adult civil conversation.

Uh, thanks but no thanks. Whatever gave you the perception that I'm being "hostile" in my responses? Are my beliefs so conflicting to yours that you deem them "hostile?" If so, then I don't think you are acting coherently.

"With that said, I do believe people can be responsible when drinking"- well, you want to believe that, but obviously what we've all seen is not encouraging.

The trouble with drinkers is that they lure themselves into a false sense of security. You may think that you're coherent and able to have self-control, but you don't know any better.

Here's some advice: if you want to "relax a bit," there are ways to do so other than putting a deadly, dangerous toxic substance in your body. Try running- it helps.

To: Luv2run

The front-range is practically directly in the middle of the state of Colorado and as was originally posted there is nothing east of the major cities that run up and down the I-25 corridor (besides DIA in the middle of nowhere).

Unless you consider Limon, Colorado or La Junta one of the 50 biggest cities in America.

This is stupid, it has nothing to do with the OP story. The bottom line never has been and never will be record times run at altitude in the state of Colorado. In fact the lowest point in Colorado is 3315 ft. on the Arkansas river at the state border.

But to answer your question, no, thankfully there are no drinkers in my family that I know of. There are, unfortunately, some smokers (and my stance on smoking is almost as emphatic as my stance on drinking).

Wa ha ha ha. Hilarious. There's a good reason why I'm not responding to any of these Jesus jokes.

GUH wrote:

Wa ha ha ha. Hilarious. There's a good reason why I'm not responding to any of these Jesus jokes.

I know, it's because you're trolling like a madman and, I must say, doing an excellent and thorough job of it.

Sir Lance-Lot, I'm not arguing from emotion. All I'm trying to convey is that trying to put a number on the number of coronary mayhem supposedly prevented by moderate drinking is futile. You acknowledge this yourself with your mitigating words (I'll back of from "weasel words" but only grudgingly); if you really trusted that there was hard science behind that 26,000 figure, you would keep citing it emphatically.

The best medical science can offer is that small amounts of ethyl alcohol has a salutary effect on incipient atherosclerotic plaques. If there is a controlled study out there comparing the rates of CVA, etc. in moderate drinkers with those of physically active abstainers on low-fat diets, I'd like to see it. To me, comparing non-drinking fat slugs with moderate fat-slug drinkers is not enlightening.

We agree that Somerville is a shit hole.

You are correct, it is very difficult to set records at the state meet as it is always in Denver (5,000 feet). I graduated from a high school right outside Colorado Springs a couple of years ago and now I am a division one runner. This story is really sad because he is a legend in Colorado running. I can still remember hearing his record time announced right before I would run the 1600 at the state meet. One of the main topics of discussion at the state meet every year would be if someone was finally going to break his record as it is definitely one of the oldest in the state. I still remember dreaming that I would be the one to do it. Hopefully he gets his life back on track.

It's sad...but it has happened to individuals in EVERY space in society.

We do not have a compassionate society that offers services and treatment to such folk.

Who was the heroin addict former runner in Portland a year ago who's store was posted.

Seriously...blame his parents...they are whom conditioned him to need this kind of self medicating pain killing medication regimen...or blame him...cos it is easier...

Or do the freakin research...

KMB,

Back on the first page you said that while training at altitude middle distance runners have to do speed work on treadmills. Why? I must be missing something obvious. The issue is not turnover but breathing thinner (less oxygen) air isn't it. Why is a treadmill needed for speedwork or am I misunderstanding something.

We do not have a compassionate society that offers services and treatment to such folk.

Seriously...blame his parents...they are whom conditioned him to need this kind of self medicating pain killing medication regimen...

Blame his parents??? There was nothing in that article that implied that his parents were in any way responsible for his current situation. I am so sick of the "blame the parents" BS that is supposed to take all responsibility from the individual who screwed up his/her life, and turn him/ her into a victim. Once you become an adult, your parents are no longer responsible for your actions. They can help or they can hinder, but your life's course is your own responsibility, and no one else's.

Blaming his parents is nothing but cruelty toward them, "adding insult to injury", so to speak.

chubb wrote:

KMB,

Back on the first page you said that while training at altitude middle distance runners have to do speed work on treadmills. Why? I must be missing something obvious. The issue is not turnover but breathing thinner (less oxygen) air isn't it. Why is a treadmill needed for speedwork or am I misunderstanding something.

It's the "using supplemental O2" part at the end that's the important part. At the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, for example, they provide 15 liters per minute of oxygen (or more accurately, air with the same pO2 as sea-level air) to triathletes and runners who can't literally do the live high-train low thing. Otherwise there's no way for athletes in the mile-to-5K (or even 10K) range to do much work at sea-level race pace. Marathoners are not hamstrung to the same extent, but even marathoners need to do some short-rep training (how much is open to debate -- Pfitz thinks striders are better than regular 200s and 400s, while McMillan argues for these kinds of reps in a new article posted on the from page or Running Times).

GUH wrote:

The trouble with drinkers is that they lure themselves into a false sense of security. You may think that you're coherent and able to have self-control, but you don't know any better.

I think this is a bit extreme. I'm in my 60s and have had a drink once or twice a week with meals for many years. I enjoy the flavor and it enhances meals in a way that other beverages don't. But in the past 30 years or so I have never had more than 2 drinks at at time or had any desire whatsoever to have more.

The idea that everyone that drinks is susceptible losing control is just nonsense. But the same thing can be said for almost anything.

Let's eliminate credit cards because some people abuse them and get into debt. Do away with gambling and prescription drugs as well. We definitely don't want to encourage running because some women are predisposed to anorexia.

Heck, let's just do away with eating because there are people that will overindulge and become obese.