he is no role model for sure. irrespective of his doped or not.
he is no role model for sure. irrespective of his doped or not.
Mr. Obvious wrote:
NIght Runner wrote:Carl Lewis never officially tested dirty. He had taken a cold medicine that contained a substance that isn't even on the list now and was proven then not to be a perfor mance enhancer.
It was on the list then. He tested positive for it. The test was coverd up. That's dirty.
What Carl took was a popular ingredient in many OTC medicines at that time and it was only placed on the band list about 3 months prior to the USOTs. Please note that communications was slower back then, you could not just go online to the IAAF or WADA site and lookup what’s on the banned list. USATF was placed in a difficult situation at that time fearing mass legal action by athletes/agents/shoe companies. USATF rightfully knew that there testing systems and overall process could not stand up to litigation. The USATF also knew they were one of the few countries who even had a sophisticated testing program and that no other country had banned any of their athletes for the same types of substances. Also, 1988 was first time is 2 successive Olympics were the Russia/Eastern Europe had went head to head and it would have been a nightmare if the USA’s marque athlete was not allowed to compete, especially knowing that the Russian/Eastern Europeans had a state organized doping program. We can forever debate Carl’s and the USATF’s actions, but that was a different area and sometimes you also have to look at the intent.
- To be fair, Carl was taking anabolic steroid, he was notified of the positive and it was definitely not in his system when he competed in the 1988 Olympics. By today standards, we can say Carl was in that grey area, but by 1988 standards’ he was a clean athlete. Btw, at age 19, Carl was already one of best sprinters and jumpers in the world; he certainly did not achieve his success by artificial means.
TrackCoach wrote:
Btw, at age 19, Carl was already one of best sprinters and jumpers in the world; he certainly did not achieve his success by artificial means.
I'm not arguing against your entire post, but you could say the same thing about Marion Jones and we all know how that turned out. Just because Carl was extremely talented at a young age doesn't prove he didn't ever use PEDs intentionally.
DidntCheat wrote:
1) He never failed a drug test
2) Even if he did cheat, everyone he beat also cheated. Many of his top competitors during his 7 wins have been tested positively.
3) Tyler Hamilton is jealous of Lance's success and is trying to get back in the spotlight, pathetic.
Marion Jones passed 135 drug tests while she was doping too. 1. Doesnt mean jack shit.
M.C. Confusing wrote:
DidntCheat wrote:1) He never failed a drug test
2) Even if he did cheat, everyone he beat also cheated. Many of his top competitors during his 7 wins have been tested positively.
3) Tyler Hamilton is jealous of Lance's success and is trying to get back in the spotlight, pathetic.
Marion Jones passed 135 drug tests while she was doping too. 1. Doesnt mean jack shit.
Canard. She wasn't being tested for what she was on.
oldhalfmileguy wrote:
Lance cheated, he got busted for steroids and then got a TUE BACKDATED so he got off. If you look at photos at the Worlds in 93 he has facial features that are consistent with side effects of long time steroid use. Ask any asthmatic about the side effects of long term use of prednisone show them a photo of lance winning the worlds in comparison to his face at the TDF. Also steroid use would explain the rapid growth & spread of testicular cancer all the way to the brain.
ANYWAY the people who say he was "best doper" at the TDF miss the point. Not every human body responds to doping the same way, that is why people are prescribed different prescriptions . Meds do not have the same effect on all people.
Meds might make help make a 4:00 miler a 3:48 miler
but a 3:55 miler might only be able to get down to 3:50
and a clean runner might get down to 3:51 but is pushed aside by all the dopers when he is actually the fastest runner(clean)
Christopher Bassons was a tremendously talented cyclist with better vo2max than Lance but he would not dope and was basically run out of the sport by the dopers
If you think doping is OK
ask the widows of the young belgian riders who died being guinea pigs in the early years of EPO.
This is a steaming pile of conjecture and half-baked assumptions. There has never been a smoking gun with Lance and this only further infuriates the haters.
Find me an unimpeachable witness. Give me analytical evidence. I don't want to hear snippets of an overheard conversation by an ex-employee with an axe to grind.
I couldn't care less what the "insiders" here heard in Boulder or from their friends in the "peleton."
Your attempt to link Lance to Cushing's syndrome is pathetic. If he used steroids that much, he would have gotten caught back when he wasn't Lance Armstrong yet. IT didn't happen.
The truth is that most people here don't like Lance. He doesn't win in the false-humble way preferred by the mostly white male basement dwellers here. He appears to be a dick. I think that people like you got your feelings hurt by either Lance or someone like him and you desperately want to get even by finding him dirty.
The US govt has investigated Lance, (& WADA, the frogs, David Walsh) and nothing has come out of it that would be admissible in a court of law as evidence that he doped.
Get over it guys. Lance has moved on - so should you.
dmb wrote:
Canard. She wasn't being tested for what she was on.
EPO? HGH? among other things...
I suppose Ramzi wasn't being tested for EPO in 2005? And who knows what else.
And just for accuracy's sake, I think Marion was tested more like 160+ times when she never tested positive, not that it matters...
This topic comes up about once per month. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, particularly when there's an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence and a positive sample that was uncorroborated. Anyone who doesn't think Lance doped is a dope. Oh, and it's highly likely that he cheated too. But there's no denying he is a great athlete with or without.
I hope he comes to confront the likely ghosts of his past and seeks to be a better MAN in the future. Perhaps he is doing that through Livestrong. Perhaps it's not all just a PR stunt.
I'll agree with you, with the exception of Lance. I think with the whole background story of the cancer and everything else Lance will be remembered. The most dominant athlete of probably the hardest race in the world.
Definitely agree with the last sentence though....nobody cares. We all believe everyone in cycling cheats...so if lance did....who cares.
What he did was phenomenal drugs or no drugs
Sagarin wrote:
This topic comes up about once per month. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, particularly when there's an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence and a positive sample that was uncorroborated. Anyone who doesn't think Lance doped is a dope. Oh, and it's highly likely that he cheated too. But there's no denying he is a great athlete with or without.
I hope he comes to confront the likely ghosts of his past and seeks to be a better MAN in the future. Perhaps he is doing that through Livestrong. Perhaps it's not all just a PR stunt.
So says an anonymous dope on an internet message board. Circumstantial evidence my a$$. It wasn't good enough to keep him from his $5M bonus, so it's far from what would be necessary to prove his guilt.
Your "absence" remark is idiotic. I can prove anything by an "absence of evidence" argument. Everyone knows that ghosts conveniently don't appear in photographs. So every time I take a picture, do I prove the existence of ghosts by their absence?
Think before posting bud...
BTW-- The drugs had nothing to do with Lance's cancer. The bike seat and testicular trauma had more to do with it-- though genes the most.
He also deserves credit for his brazen exploitation of the illness.
Dumps his wife. Male whores around with his one ball. Is by all accounts a major A**hole, yet Phil Knight continues to be loyal to him.
Why?
A**holes have each other's backs.
How can anyone with an ounce of integrity continue to wear Nikes?
Because Pre did?
Good grief.
TrackCoach wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:It was on the list then. He tested positive for it. The test was coverd up. That's dirty.
What Carl took was a popular ingredient in many OTC medicines at that time and it was only placed on the band list about 3 months prior to the USOTs. Please note that communications was slower back then, you could not just go online to the IAAF or WADA site and lookup what’s on the banned list. USATF was placed in a difficult situation at that time fearing mass legal action by athletes/agents/shoe companies. USATF rightfully knew that there testing systems and overall process could not stand up to litigation. The USATF also knew they were one of the few countries who even had a sophisticated testing program and that no other country had banned any of their athletes for the same types of substances. Also, 1988 was first time is 2 successive Olympics were the Russia/Eastern Europe had went head to head and it would have been a nightmare if the USA’s marque athlete was not allowed to compete, especially knowing that the Russian/Eastern Europeans had a state organized doping program. We can forever debate Carl’s and the USATF’s actions, but that was a different area and sometimes you also have to look at the intent.
- To be fair, Carl was taking anabolic steroid, he was notified of the positive and it was definitely not in his system when he competed in the 1988 Olympics. By today standards, we can say Carl was in that grey area, but by 1988 standards’ he was a clean athlete. Btw, at age 19, Carl was already one of best sprinters and jumpers in the world; he certainly did not achieve his success by artificial means.
It doesn't matter that it wasn't in his system, you don't need anabolic steroids in your system when you compete, you need them when you TRAIN. There is no grey area, he cheated. Simple as that.
Did Cheat wrote:
I was a huge fan of Lance, but come on, how many people have to come forward to confirm that Lance is dirty? Are they all lying? Of the top of my head, I can think of:
1.Tyler Hamilton
2.Landis
3.Irish Massage Therapist (said she disposed of medical waste for Armstrong).
4.Greg LeMond
5.Either Hincappie or Andrieu, cant recall exactly.
LA was in a sport where EVERYONE took peds of some kind. It was expected just to survive. The season was long and hard.
Bonds etc was in a sport where they were cheating, and the bulk were not. It was an advantage that set them apart from their competitors.
Big difference.
dmb wrote:
This is a steaming pile of conjecture and half-baked assumptions. There has never been a smoking gun with Lance and this only further infuriates the haters.
Find me an unimpeachable witness. Give me analytical evidence. I don't want to hear snippets of an overheard conversation by an ex-employee with an axe to grind.
I couldn't care less what the "insiders" here heard in Boulder or from their friends in the "peleton."
Your attempt to link Lance to Cushing's syndrome is pathetic. If he used steroids that much, he would have gotten caught back when he wasn't Lance Armstrong yet. IT didn't happen.
The truth is that most people here don't like Lance. He doesn't win in the false-humble way preferred by the mostly white male basement dwellers here. He appears to be a dick. I think that people like you got your feelings hurt by either Lance or someone like him and you desperately want to get even by finding him dirty.
The US govt has investigated Lance, (& WADA, the frogs, David Walsh) and nothing has come out of it that would be admissible in a court of law as evidence that he doped.
Get over it guys. Lance has moved on - so should you.
Speaking of "half-baked" assumptions and a pile of manure, how about an original thought on your part?
"an ex-employee with an axe to grind" - How many times did we hear that directly from Lance or his PR camp? Can you name any other professional athlete with so many former employees with an axe to grind? Do you really think it's that simple? They all want to get back at Lance so they make up stories about him being a doper? Wow.
You missed this one, "most tested athlete ever." Or are you going to save this one for your closing argument. This information is available (WADA, UCI, etc.). If you ever bothered to look, you'd quickly realize it's a lie. He's not even the most tested cyclist. If he was clean, why would he lie about this over and over?
"Give me analytical evidence."
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashendenWhat axe is Ashenden grinding? He'd not an ex-employee. He's not a former teammate.
What about Betsy Andreu's credibility? Please come up with something more original than "she hated Lance."
Finally, to show you had a really good post you brought out the infamous "gotcha" line, "white male basement dwellers here." What a great way to prove your point! With such an impressive and bold argument how could any of us ever begin to think Lance was dirty?! Well done, dmb.
It seems the thought of Lance being a cheat and a fraud really "infuriates" the yellow band wearers.
FvCK YOU! Lance is clean and you are all unAmerican!
There is a statue on top of Mont Ventoux to Tom Simpson.
He was the TDF British cyclist who died from an amphetimine over dose while racing the TdF.
No one cares about LA when everyone is taking something to get them through the day.
It was a level playing field back then.
The rules have now changed, and Cycling's attempting to be a different level playing field now.
Lance is white and he's American. It would be physically impossible for him to cheat. It just can't happen. He just evaded the entrapment by the French media (or something) better than Landis or Hamilton. That is all.
Saying Lance has never doped is literally worse than all of you still believing in Santa Clause. He's already been tested positive for EPO by a French testing agency. Lance tried to say the evidence was not "maintained" properly. That's even more pathetic than Contador claiming he ate contaminated meat.
The only reason they couldn't follow through with the allegations was because the testing were not inclusive with "official" testings regarding anti-doping -- basically regarding them as "off the record testing" if there even is such a thing.
Lance then criticized people for not being able to believe in "miracles" and that he made a legitimate comeback from cancer. Personally, I think it's a miracle to win the Tour de France post-chemo/cancer even IF he was doping.
I think the part everyone has a problem with is his name is on every STINKING piece of athletic apparel/accessory in the world, on posters, billboards, magazines...and he's a flat out liar.
It's equally as nauseating listening to people defend him when they say "well he HAS given back the cancer community." Ok. That's fantastic.
Maybe if Casey Anthony starts a foundation for malnourished children in the U.S. we can also believe her, or at least cross off and forget about her allegations. Maybe put her on a box of Wheaties while we're at it.