Kenyan Trials

Tinman wrote:Another question:

Do you think that runners who specialize in the 3,000-5000m events need marathon paced training in order to enhance their endurance for more race-specific training?

Tom

i'm no coach, but you are suggesting using a pistol to sink a battleship

the theoretical gains from improving M time to filter to 3k/5k improvements are trivial ( assuming basic 400 speed is unchanged ) - it worked for paula, but again, probably not by much

if you have a 7'30/13'00 guy who runs a M, his theoretical time for a M on a track from :

woud be ~ 2"07'20 & 400 of 50.6

if he improves his M by 1'00 to 2"06'20 but keeps 50.6 speed, his new hypothetical times for 3k/5k are :

7'28.1 , 12'56.2

a minute off his M has led to less than 2s improvement in 3k & less than 4s over 5k

it's not an effort/reward ratio method...

Hello Mr. Canova

I am wondering if you had any athletes that took long periods of time off and came back to the same level again. I’ve stopped training for almost a year but I have a deep passion for the sport in me and don’t want to stop just yet. Do you think it is possible to regain the fitness level I had in the past with few months of training or it would be so much more difficult since I completely stopped running for the last 9 months.

Thank you for your input

Sometimes we are surprised at the way athletes are coached at top levels. In the early 1960's, everyone was surprised that Lydiard's middle distance runners were covering 100 miles per week in training. Later, it became understood that all that mileage helped Lydiard's boys run a lot more quality training (faster intervals/reps) without breaking down. And, his boys could sustain speed in races extremely well compared to many runners who were not trained for endurance/stamina.

It may be the case that Mr. Canova's trains 3k-5km runners with marathon pace or fairly close to it at various times of the year for a specific reason. Primarily, that's why I am asking. The second reason I am asking is because many top runners over the years have included fast, continuous distance runs in their training. Herb Elliot ran 8k-10km fast, John Walker ran 10 miles fast, and on an on an on. I doubt those guys ran fast 10 milers for the heck of it. Bill Dellinger prescribed a fast (tempo) 10 miler during the off-season for runners who raced both the middle distances and distances. Both Salazar's and Schumaker's athletes regularly perform tempo runs in the 4:40-5:00 per mile range.

I am wondering if Mr. Canova has an opinion about it.

Lol, what a demeaning post. Thanks for bringing running to Kenya Sir I do not know what we would do without you.

Renato, I know your very busy and all and I will try and make this a quick question. I've always been fascinated with recruiting elite runners and looking at how they start of and how they improve.

Anyway, I was wondering how do you tell the talent of an athlete? How do you sort of the ones that are really good for the ones that are mediocre? Do they have to be able to keep up with elite athletes for certain amounts of time? Do they have to show large amounts of improvements? Do they have to be able to complete and adapt to your programs quickly? Or is it a mixture of all of this or neither of this?

Hope to here back from you soon!

"All that I am, I am because of my mind", muscles, pieces of rubber." Pavvo Nurmi

I think it is useless to start throwing around that anyone who runs fast must be using drugs. If there is no proof, what is the point in mentioning it.

Well he sure wasn't on this thread and we're discussing this thread. Yes it's tougher to coach top runners.......really?

lol@tards.. wrote:

CanadaCoach wrote:

If you want to discuss examples of how to train or training ideas, it would be beneficial to talk in terms of % of race pace

Canova has done this, and in greater detail than any coach who has ever posted on this message board.

It's called the "search" button: learn it, know it, live it.

Or you can keep wanking off to your sub-4:20 "prodigy"...

Wow TinMan, you surely think yourself to be the hot shit! It is lucky for you just that a great Antonio Cabral would post for your prideful American eye, and even in the language of your mother. Lower your pride, do not treat such a man, as though he were your equal...

I have trouble believing this. On what basis can you conclude that Over 5% of race pace doesn't have any effect on specific performance. Is there a difference in your mind between performance and specific performance?

ks wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

Every speed faster than 5% of the race pace doesn't have any action on the specific performance (in this case, if the MP for the WE is 2'57" = 17"7 every 100m, 105% is 15"9 = 400m in 63"6 = 1000m in 2'39").

I want to try to clarify what you said. You stated that anything faster than 5% of the race pace doesn't have any action on the specific performance. Then it appears you calculated 2'39" per 1000m compared to 2'57" per 1000m. This appears to be 10% faster than goal pace. Are you suggesting that those paces would be a poor choice or am I missing something in your calculations of 5%?

Thank you for your generosity of knowledge.

Yes, there is a big difference between "performance" and "specific performance", like there is big difference between "general shape" and "specific shape".

When we speak about top shape in specific competitions, we speak about the ability to reach 100% of the potential in THAT EVENT.

Under this point of view, for example, if you are a marathon runner, and you are able to improve your PB in 1500m two weeks before the marathon, this means YOU ARE NOT IN SHAPE FOR THE MARATHON, because your training went in different direction.

We speak about top athletes, of course, not about amateurs. In their case, it's possible that, increasing mileage at slow pace, and increasing speed with short intervals, they can be able to improve all their PB.

But the case of top runners is very much different.

The key of training is :

A) To identify his SPECIFIC TRAINING (specific because is directed to one specific event)

B) To increase THE VOLUME OF HIS SPECIFIC TRAINING

C) To prepare the athlete, using FUNDAMENTAL and SPECIAL TRAINING, to reach the above goal (to increase the volume of specific training)

Under this point of view, IN ALL THE EVENTS OF ENDURANCE, the specific training is something including various distances run at a speed between 95% and 105% of the speed of the race.

I want to give some example :

for athletes having a PB of 3'45" (1500, speed 15" every 100m, specific speed between 14"2 and 15"8 every 100m :

tests of 200m (28"4), 300 (42"6), 400 (56"8), 500 (1'12"), 600 (1'26"2), 800 (1'54"6) and 1000m (2'23") at 105%, stimulating specific speed,

test of 600 (1'39"), 800 (2'10"6), 1000 (2'42"2), 1200 (3'13"8), 1600 (4'21"2), 2000 (5'24"4) at 95% stimulating the Aerobic Power)

for athletes having 27'30" in 10000m (speed 16"5 every 100m, specific speed between 15"7 and 17"4 per km :

test of 600 (1'34"2), 800 (2'05"6), 1000 (2'37"), 1200 (3'08"4) at 105%, stimulating specific speed

test of 1000 (2'54"), 2000 (5'48"), 3000 (8'42"), 4000 (11'36") at 95% stimulating the Aerobic Power

long run of 6-10 km at 95% stimulating the Threshold

long run of 12-25 km at 90% (in this case 3'01"5 per km) stimulating the ability in extending the duration at the speed of Aerobic Power

In this training phylosophy, we say that EVERY SPEED FASTER THAN 105% OF THE SPEED OF THE RACE must be considered as SPEED, and is the "cherry on the cake", but is not the cake.

Of course we use also maximal speed, but never as one of the most important means of training.

One simple question : what do you do with a high speed, when you are not able to stay with the best athletes till last lap ? It's clear that, till when you are not one of the elite group in your distance (as endurance), if you want to be competitive the goal is to enhance the average of your speed, and this is possible increasing the Aerobic Power, not the speed.

Among athletes having the same level of endurance, the faster wins. But NEVER the faster wins, if his level of endurance is lower than the level of some other competitor.

Yes this now makes sense.

What is your view on speed reserve? Especially in the lower distances, like 800m. In other words, increasing the max speed so that the athlete can run easier (everything else being the same) at race pace.

for example, with everything else being the same, an 800m runner with 22.5 speed being able to run at 26.5 second pace, easier than an 800m runner with 23.1 200m speed.

In this case, it seems to me that training at greater than 5% of your race pace may be valuable for specific performance.

The event of 800m has some more connection with the high speed of 400m. In this case, it's clear that you need also to use full speed. But in the case of very fast runners (for example, David Rudisha), the average for every 100m is already very fast (12.6), and 105% is 11"9, that is normally used for distances till 400m (23"8 / 35"7 / 47"6), because it's not possible running longer distances at the same pace (that speed for 500m means 59"5 that is the World Best).

In the case of Rudisha, he only occasionally runs faster than these times, and his big improvement during the last 3 years is due to a big increase in specific workouts, supported by a very much better Aerobic Power (he was very week under this side, 4 years ago).

Also athletes like Joaquim Cruz (1'41"77), or Steve Cram (1'42"88), used maximal speed only occasionally.

I normally use,long all the season, short sprints uphill (80m) at max intensity, with the goal to recruit the higher percentage of fibres, and I think it enough for a specialist, but never go for something shorter than 150m on track at max speed.

Also the specific speed endurance using short tests (for example, 3 sets of 6 x 60m + 2 sets of 5 x 80m + 1 set of 4 x 100m) is carried on at 95% of the max speed of the athlete (in this case we don't consider the percentage of the speed of the race, but, more simply, the percentage of the max personal speed).

Mr. Canova, one historical question.I have one book, which talks about "battle" between Verkhoshanski's and Bondarchuk's system in eighties.

What is your opinion about the Soviet block system, especially works of Matveyev, Ozolin, Verkhoshanski, Bondarchuk?

Thanks

I hope you don't mean me. I didn't bring it up. I agree completely. I would go way further than that. Not only useless, but counter-productive, naive, and ignorant, of real world practicalities.And proof, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it.The idea that the East African domination in endurance events of such magnitude, for such a long duration, can simply be explained by some kind of wide-spread, covert, and as yet largely undetected for decades, drug program, is simply not credible. Such a "super secret" scenario is more unbelievable than the Kenyan domination it attempts to explain. It demonstrates an under-developed understanding of the real world.Everybody can take drugs. Why is the dominance particularly limited to East Africans? Within East Africans, why are Nandis particularly over-represented? Do they have some secret lab buried deep in the high plains, run by the world's best doctors?East Africans dominate, due to a combination of internal factors (mental, cultural, physical, etc.) unique to them, not external factors like drugs.

Oldrunner23 wrote:

I think it is useless to start throwing around that anyone who runs fast must be using drugs. If there is no proof, what is the point in mentioning it.

Antonio cabral,

You are right that most americans are fat pieces of sh-t and eat too many fried chicken wings thus find it difficult for them to understand basic training methodologies. Lots of greasy foods at Popeye's Chicken and Biscuits or KFC.note that in americas any and all running is performed to solely get away from the Police authorities after criminal activity/ shoplifting/robbery. So It is often short repetitions like you say. Actually It not repetitions at all like Afrikans you know, instead it is usually something like 1 x 800m all out until the policeman in the middle of eating dunkin donuts can't catch him or her.

There is no specific training in America besides 1 x 800m+ all out or until the policeman in the middle of eating dunkin donuts can't catch him or her. Then it's back to McDonalds and XBOX. That's how we do it in USA!!!

Be an African with a 16 BMI and run tons of milage really fast......that's brill !

Get my "hot body" to a sub 20-5k ,then we're talking....

Maury.