Indoor Sub 4 Miles not True Sub 4

Outdoors tops indoors among college guys by a clear margin, despite it hardly being contested anymore.

Top Indoor Miles

3:55.02 German Fernandez 02/28/09

3:55.0 Tony Waldrop 02/17/74

3:55.11 Nate Brannen’ 01/29/05

3:55.33 Kevin Sullivan’ 03/11/95

3:55.4 Niall O’Shaughnessy’ 01/28/77

3:55.5 Sydney Maree 02/21/81

3:55.65 Bernard Lagat’ 03/06/99

3:55.72 Graham Hood’ 03/11/95

3:55.7 Wilson Waigwa’ 02/18/77

3:55.91 Doug Consiglio’ 01/25/86

Top Outdoor Miles

3:52.44 Sydney Maree’ ( 05/30/81

3:53.00 Joaquim Cruz’ 05/13/84

3:53.2 Jim Ryun 06/02/67

3:53.2 Tony Waldrop 04/27/74

3:53.3 Eamonn Coghlan’ 05/17/75

3:53.7 ——Ryun 06/04/66

3:53.8 Wilson Waigwa’ 04/30/77

3:53.9 Steve Scott 03/25/78

3:54.22i Don Paige 02/16/80

3:54.6 Marty Liquori 05/16/71

Not Following wrote:

Excuse my stupidity,but a track is measured to be EXACTLY 200m (160m, 307m, etc) from the inside line right?

That is not correct.

Tracks are measured on a nominal count, either 20cm or 30cm from the line. While it's not possible to run on the line, it is possible to run inside of the invisible line from which the nominal (400m or 200m) measurement was made.

400m track (curb) measured 30cm in lane 1 = 2(Pi)R = 2(3.1416)0.30 = 1.88m short of 400m or 398.12m

400m track (no curb) measured 20cm in lane 1 = 2(Pi)R = 2(3.1416)0.20 = 1.26m short of 400m or 398.74m

200m track (curb) measured 30cm in lane 1 = 2(Pi)R = 2(3.1416)0.30 = 1.88m short of 200m or 198.12m

200m track (no curb) measured 20cm in lane 1 = 2(Pi)R = 2(3.1416)0.20 = 1.26m short of 200m or 198.74m

If you download this Excel Spreadsheet, "PaceMeister", the middle tab includes a "LaneMeister" which should illustrate to you how tracks are measured.

Outdoor 1500s also superior to indoor miles:

3:35.30 Sydney Maree’ 06/06/81

3:35.79 Abdi Bile’ 06/06/87

3:35.84 Joe Falcon ( 04/16/88

3:35.84 Brian Hyde 05/13/95

3:36.48 Joaquim Cruz’ 06/02/84

3:36.62 Kevin Sullivan’ 05/15/98

3:36.92 Matthew Centrowitz 05/02/09

3:37.01 Eamonn Coghlan’ 06/05/76

3:37.05 Bryan Berryhill 06/02/01

3:37.07 Lopez Lomong’ 06/09/07

But the same pattern isn't found with the high jump, as there are 5 indoor marks among the top all time collegiate jumps, including the best non-altitude jump ever.

Outdoors:

2.38(A) 7-9¾ Hollis Conway 06/03/89

2.37ind 7-9¼ ——Conway 03/11/89

2.36(A) 7-8¾ Dusty Jonas 05/18/08

2.35 7-8½ Charles Austin 05/21/90

Charles Clinger 05/19/01

2.34 7-8 ——Conway 04/29/89

ind Brian Brown 03/09/90

Darrin Plab 06/06/92

Donald Thomas’ 04/21/07

2.33 7-7¾ Tom Smith 06/04/88

ind ——Conway 02/24/89

(A) ——Conway 06/03/89

——Austin 06/02/90

Mark Boswell’ 06/05/99

ind ——Boswell’ 03/10/00

——Boswell’ 04/08/00

ind Andra Manson 02/10/07

Scott Sellers 05/13/0

Are you suggesting that runners at their peak run faster than when they are NOT at their peak? Someone alert the media!

Note so self: runners at their peak run faster than when they are not at their peak.

Me, I'm impressed with how fast some of those runners ran on 160yd board tracks, Thanks for posting those lists. Makes you wonder, how fast could those oldtimers have run at Penn State, Arkansas, The Armory, Notre Dame, or UW? It boggles the mind.

Can we not take this to the sprints as well? For instance at Arkansas if you start in the outside lane for the 200 you have a net drop of 10 ft from start to finish and from Malmo has said they can run a shorter distance.

I do have a question for malmo though and this is simply a question. Does the distance that you run on the turn matter? If it does then the total distance run would be the same for indoors and outdoor because you are turning about the same total distance.

I tend to think that there is certainly another aspect to the superfast times at these indoor meets...

These kids are getting the best base training of their lives from mid summer through the end of cross-country season and in many cases they are getting their asses handed to them by the 5k-10k guys on their team and then they get to spike up and be in their element. They rip some 400's and 200's in practice for a month or so and then they go run big PRs. The problem is, they better get in some good long runs and tempos or they will be trash by May/June.

malmo wrote:

Additionally, the human element is at work. As others have stated on other threads now and before, the compliance with the inside lane rules with respect to UW and Notre Dame's track have come under fire each and every winter. By placing the cones off of the track, it allows runners to hug the curb even more.

They do comply with the rules that is where the cones are supposed to be!

No. You do understand that the velocities are much faster for 200m than for running a mile don't you? You do understand that it's more difficult to run in lane one than in lane 6?

A ten foot drop? Are you retarded, or have you been telling your girlfriend what 10 inches is for so long that you have lost all sense of proportion?

1) everyone, whether they are in lane one or in lane 8 runs exactly the same distance on the turn. It's just that in lane 8 the turn is not as tight as in lane 8. Lane 8 is easier.

In an indoor track, the distance in lane one, NOMINALLY, is 200m. The actual distance at the curb is 198.12m. On an outdoor track, the distance of a 200m race, NOMINALLY, is 200meters. It is actually 1*Pi*0.30 = 199.06m because you are not making a complete revolution of the track, you are only making a 180degree turn. .

If you run 30cm from the curb, the place where your track is measured, then yes, both an indoor track and an outdoor track will be exactly 200meters or 400 meters.

Real Sub 4 Miler wrote:

Exactly my point. It's easier indoors because you don't have to contend with unfavorable weather conditions. Outdoor 1500/mile races tend to be tactical affairs because it's bloody hard to front run when you are outdoors battling the wind.

Negated in Europe in the summer (see Wheating/Acosta examples). Maybe you need to amend "Miles not run outdoors battling wind are not True Sub 4". Hell, might as well throw "on cinders" in there for good measure.

Phil. wrote:

They do comply with the rules that is where the cones are supposed to be!

The photographic record disagrees.

Oval Track and Lanes

ARTICLE 3. The standard indoor running track shall be 200 meters. This

distance may be reduced or exceeded. Indoor tracks that are equal to or

exceed the standard outdoor running track length, as defined by Rule 1-1.2,

shall not be considered an indoor track. The length of any indoor track

constructed after January 1, 2004, shall not exceed 300 meters.

The track shall consist of two horizontal straights and two curves with

consistent radii, which may be banked. The curves may be bordered with a

curb of suitable material approximately 5 centimeters in height and width.

Where the inside edge of the track is bordered by a white line, it shall be

marked additionally with cones. The cones shall be at least 15 centimeters

high. Cones shall be placed on the track so that the outward face of the cone

coincides with the edge of the white line closest to the track when the track is

surveyed based on the existence of a curb. Otherwise, cones shall be placed

on the infield adjacent to the line. The cones shall be placed at distances not

exceeding 2 meters on the curves and 10 meters on the straightaway.

The inside edge of the curb or lane line shall be horizontal throughout

the length of the track. For a flat track, an inclination toward the inside lane

shall not exceed 1:1,000, one-tenth of one percent (0.1%). Any facility that

exceeds this inclination shall be defined as banked.

The track should have a minimum of six lanes. Lanes should have a

recommended minimum of 0.914 meters (36 inches), including the lane line

to the right. Lanes shall be marked by lines 5 centimeters wide. A section of

the intersection of each lane line and the finish line shall be painted black

in a pattern to assist photo-finish lane identification and camera alignment.

Figure 3 is an example.

It is recommended that a maximum angle of banking should not be more

than 18 degrees for a 200-meter track. This angle may vary based upon the

size of a track. The angle of banking in all lanes should be the same at any

cross section.

It is recommended that the inside radius of the curves on a 200-meter

track should be not less than 18 meters and not more than 21 meters.

Portable indoor tracks shall be surveyed before the first competition each

year. Permanent indoor tracks shall be surveyed after initial construction and

after resurfacing.

above are links to two articles that would prove some of malmo's points, and go against the grain of my personal experiences. i've run on harvard's track, and while my indoor pr in an actual mile is there, i would never have included it on a list of fast tracks. also, there must be more "tuned" outdoor tracks since these articles saw print; if i recall, the zurich stadium redid their track in the mid-90s according to some of these ideas. so then the question may be: would it be easier to break 4 outdoors at zurich vs. the tuned indoor tracks of stuttgart or harvard?

to explain my personal experience further: i don't think it came down completely to february fitness vs. july fitness, though that was at least a factor to consider. for me, it was more my style of running: as a "rhythm runner," the additional turns, as well as the brevity of the turns, did not lend themselves to me, even with the banking. perhaps a poor analogy, and you guys with the physics backgrounds are way over my head, but just as i hate road races with hairpin turns, it seems that no matter what the turn is, there has to be diminishing speed. is it fair, from a physics standpoint, to ask the question: would you rather run a mile with 16 hairpin turns vs. 8 moderate turns? as you work your way into the question, where does the tuning of the track counter what to me seems an obvious disadvantage? to further complicate things, not every track has the same length of turns.

with runners of other styles, or with runners who trained consistently indoors, their experiences may be different, but so far, i'm the only verified sub-4 guy to chime in. malmo, your points are well-made, but what did your experiences tell you between indoors and out? seeing the list posted, i'd be curious what doug consiglio would say, especiall being of the tallish sort. however, the stereotype of the "tall runner" performing poorly indoors was defied by johnny gray in the 800; hence, my bottomline assertion that any attempt at gleaning any real truths from data may be misleading...

Malmo,

You know I come on here and be kind and try to ask a couple of simple questions to gain understanding and you want to start bashing. So now it is time to fire back. You want to call me a retard well I think you must the mfing retard who has never been to tyson. If you had been to tyson then you would know that in the outside lane you are starting at least 8 feet maybe 10, I don't know exactly, above ground due to the staggered start. You then finish about 6 inches above the ground at the finish therefore you have a very steep net drop. Maybe before you start slamming people you should think a bit yourself you retard. I know that most of the fastest sprint times in the world are set at tyson each year and I believe it is due to the fact that it has such a high bank. It is actually not a very good track for distance races.

I wasn't aware until recently that tracks with curbs and tracks without are surveyed differently. But yes, when I was at a local school with a new track, they asked me questions about various markings on the track and the guy doing the marking told me the same thing stated here several times. If it was surveyed for a curb, the cones go on the line. If not, the cones go off the inside of the line.

Is it because the rules allow you to actually step on teh line (not 3 consecutive), but you can't step on a curb?

If you want to be considered a Sub 4 miler without (i) forever next to your time, do it outdoors. Also, you won't have to worry about jackasses like Malmo and me ragging you that your time is unworthy.

p.s. Cush, you were/are a better miler than me.

You're absolutely right. Indoor athletics is not a big deal in the UK. In fact until the 90's we only had a wooden track at Cosford, which was in an old RAF hanger. It was slow, and athletes competing in the 3000m would often complain and need a week to recover from bruised feet!

Real Sub 4 Miler wrote:

Do it outdoors or you can't claim a true sub 4 mile. Plus, you will be resigned to indoor lists that are not as recognized as outdoor lists. It is becoming apparent that indoor mile times are aided times.

Sub 4 really is very fast for a guy anymore either indoors or out. That time is so 1954!

*isn't very fast for a guy.*

socalcush wrote:

fact 5: i'm 2-0 vs. el gherrouj. nothing to do with this thread, but it helps me get over the fact that you've purportedly beaten me many times, plus it eliminates the possibility that you may in fact be el gherrouj. now if someone can help me get over the fact that i never went on a date with farrah fawcett...

You claim to have beat El Guerrouj in the only two times you raced? Do you care to cite the races? Unless you beat him when he was a kid this is hard to believe. Who beat him? Steven Cherono (Shaheen), once. Ngyen, who beat him but lost other times. Lagat, who lost many times and beat him once. Haile G in 92 world junior? Were you in the Atlanta final? Because that really does not count.