Dear Barefoot Runners

machinegunfunk wrote:

HHH wrote:

I'm assuming you have some proof to back up this theory of yours?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12942235http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

HHH wrote:

Were any of the current world records set by someone not wearing shoes?

No because the current world record holders were all sponsored by shoe companies. So we all know the answer to that question. AND the generel belief is that shoes are better than being close to barefoot...most people are just like you HHH. BTW Im talking about training shoes not spikes (which are minimalistic).

Shoes are great for basic protection...but not so great when they alter the natural motion of the foot.

Neither of these studies support barefoot running.

So, you really think athletes are purposely running slower than what they could barefoot just to make a few extra bucks? Wow.

the truth will set you free wrote:

HHH wrote:

Do you have a study to back this up?

Beautifully written (about shoes in general, not running specific):

http://tinyurl.com/deformedfeet

As you wrote, not running specific...

Runboys wrote:I never was really an obnoxious heel striker, but about 2 years ago I started doing more of a 'proper' stride, that is, more mid-food. At first, my calves killed me but now I think I have improved for the better. I do grass drills, plyometrics, strides etc barefoot but don't really run that way. To do it properly it would take quite a while to adapt to run more than 3 miles barefoot. I wear simple shoes and keep them for a long time as well.

And what exactly makes a stride proper?

HHH wrote:

Neither of these studies support barefoot running.

So, you really think athletes are purposely running slower than what they could barefoot just to make a few extra bucks? Wow.

HHH they support the fact that tendons are getting stronger with eccentric training. If you had a common sense then you could do the math. But you dismiss everything that doesn't contain the explicit word 'barefoot'.

What claim do you want proof of? That a heel lower to the ground will bring a deeper stretch to the achilles tendon? It's so basic you can get the proof by trying it yourself.

A few extra bucks? For an american or for a poor african? If I got anything for free I would use it if I didn't knew any better.

Athletes are running slower because of ignorance and lack of education. Im not saying they should run barefoot but close to barefoot in minimalistic shoes.

I just think some of you guys are missing the point. I've read some pages of this and got bored by the way you guys can carry on. Anyway, I also work in a running shop. One that sells only moderate stability to control shoes using a special foot pad for "gait analysis." To an extent it's a crock because my boss (who's a physical therapist and designs orthotics) just tells me to sell the shoes we have. So basically, I lie to people even if they don't need a stability shoe. Before I continue I should let you know that I've put my 2 week notice in. But since working there I've done a lot of reading about the barefoot thing. We all witnessed Salzar trying to change ritz's form, which would have just been bare foot had he not been sponsored by Nike. Also, we can't look at Bekele and Geb as great examples because they're genetic lottery winners which is far and away the leading cause for their success. By the way Jack Daniels who's been sponsored by a few shoe companies, goes on to say how fast we can run on certain surfaces and why you SHOULD be wearing shoes for a marathon.

I guess the thing we're really debating is, is running barefoot going to help me? Can it reduce injury? Probably. Can it improve my form? Probably? If I'm injury prone should I really bother? Probably not...but you should think about strengthening you lower limb. So can it make you a better runner? Sure..But will it? Even if you do it the right way and gradually make it a PART of your training? Maybe not. Should you try it? If you not going to qualify for the Olympics then what to you have to lose?

On another note I have 2 people very close to me who wear orthotics. My Father who still spend a large portion of the day on his feet hasn't had real feet problems since having them, why? Because he also did what his Pediatrist recommended and walks barefoot around the house. So for him who spends all this time on concrete and asphalt orthotics are good. My other friend who had plantar facia problems since college now wears orthotics, can see how they both help and hurt him because he feels like it's making his foot weaker.

So really all this stuff is individual just like the right mix of miles, cross training, intervals, tempo, reps.

Just have a think about it and if it's the right thing for you or if you should recommend it. Barefoot to Orthotics for money and for medical reasons they'll always have a purpose.

HHH wrote:

another shoe guy wrote:than from someone I "push" into a control shoe that injures them and causes them to give up running.

Do you have a study to back this up?

I was sarcastically referencing what minimalists imply that "shoe guys" and the shoe industry do to runners.

The main problem with this debate is the zeal pro or anti.

I say just take off yer shoes and run.

You know, like everyone does on the beach? Like we all did when we were young?

J.O. wrote:

The main problem with this debate is the zeal pro or anti.

I say just take off yer shoes and run.

You know, like everyone does on the beach? Like we all did when we were young?

Do you have a study to back this up?

HHHH wrote:

Do you have a study to back this up?

My study can beat up your study! :)

J.O. wrote:

The main problem with this debate is the zeal pro or anti.

This, I agree strongly with. (I admit I feel one side is even more zealous than the other, but both are guilty)

J.O. wrote:

I say just take off yer shoes and run

Change this to "Just find what works for you and run"

another shoe guy wrote:

HHH wrote:

Do you have a study to back this up?

I was sarcastically referencing what minimalists imply that "shoe guys" and the shoe industry do to runners.

Okay, carry on!

machinegunfunk wrote:HHH they support the fact that tendons are getting stronger with eccentric training. If you had a common sense then you could do the math. But you dismiss everything that doesn't contain the explicit word 'barefoot'.

What claim do you want proof of? That a heel lower to the ground will bring a deeper stretch to the achilles tendon? It's so basic you can get the proof by trying it yourself.

A few extra bucks? For an american or for a poor african? If I got anything for free I would use it if I didn't knew any better.

Athletes are running slower because of ignorance and lack of education. Im not saying they should run barefoot but close to barefoot in minimalistic shoes.

So, you are saying that because you think barefoot running might provide a form of eccentric training that if we run barefoot, then we might strengthen our lower leg muscles which might help us run faster? You've sold me, I'm throwing away all of my shoes as I type this...

Sure, if you want to provide some proof about heel striking being so detrimental to running faster, that would be great. While you're at it, please explain why so many elites run really fast while heel striking?

Your comments about money being the only reason people wear shoes are laughable.

If athletes are running slower, why do WR's continue to get broken? And I'm the one lacking common sense? You must be a fecking retard.

All any of us really has is our own running to speak for us. I think the less secure you feel as a runner yourself, the more you feel you need studies and successful people to point to, because you feel own running is not impressive enough. In my case, I run barefoot and I hold my own or better competing against most people that are about my age and fitness level. I'm successfully competing with them and I'm not wearing shoes. Not only that, but I continue to improve my abilities, set PRs, etc. I think this is sufficiently impressive.

Will someone set a world record barefoot? Do elite athletes win races barefoot? These are nice questions but they don't really concern me and have very little to do with my own achievements.

Perhaps I am but aren't we all? We can still respect each other :)

Your sarcasm shines through...

Heel striking has nothing to do with this (there is a another thread). The eccentric loading happens when you've landed on the ground. Think of jumping...you need to squat to make a high jump.

I don't know how you twisted this...did I say it was the only reason? As I said earlier shoes should be worn for basic protection. Money IS an important factor to whether a poor man can wear hi-tech shoes or not. But you seem to underestimate it because money probably has very little value to you as a person. To get shoes for free means a whole lot for some people. How many pair of hi-tech shoes do you think a non-sponsored african athlete own?

Because shoes are a constant variable for the last decades. Shoes are the norm you see. So you just go on with your world records as the great PROOF of shoes being better.

Davis Barefooter wrote:All any of us really has is our own running to speak for us. I think the less secure you feel as a runner yourself, the more you feel you need studies and successful people to point to, because you feel own running is not impressive enough. In my case, I run barefoot and I hold my own or better competing against most people that are about my age and fitness level. I'm successfully competing with them and I'm not wearing shoes. Not only that, but I continue to improve my abilities, set PRs, etc. I think this is sufficiently impressive.

Will someone set a world record barefoot? Do elite athletes win races barefoot? These are nice questions but they don't really concern me and have very little to do with my own achievements.

Davey: I'm very secure in my own running and accomplishments thanks.

The funny thing is, is that I really enjoy barefoot running when I can and when running faster, I am a mid/flat foot striker. But the thing that bugs me about the whole barefoot/minimalist movement is the way in which they feel the need to claim everyone else is running incorrectly and that their way is the only way. It's not black and white guys, that's what drives me nuts.

That's great that's it working for you Davey. I'm glad you are feeling more secure about your running now that you are running barefoot. Just spare the rest of your preaching about how we aren't running correctly.

So you can dish out the insults and name calling but can't take it?

I'm glad you see how weak your argument is.

Please refer to my last sarcastic post.

This line of arguing just weakens your overall argument, you should give it up. I forget who said it, might have been Renato, but the biggest difference between the North American minimalists and Kenyan runners is that Kenyan runners are intelligent enough to put on shoes as soon as they can afford them.

I have never said shoes are better, only that they aren't worse. Same with heel striking, it's not worse than mid/flat foot striking for distance running. But you have to admit, it certainly pokes some holes in your barefoot is much better argument don't you?

It's funny how you refer to shoes being better for Kenyans runners and then in the next sentence claim the opposite.

As for heel striking you must know a thing or two.

When a elite runner "heel strikes" you get tricked by the eye. What really happens is just dorsiflexion to the ankle and the heel happens to touch the ground first but not "strike" the ground. There is a big difference since there is no major weight put directly on the heel first since the transition from heel to flat foot is so rapid. You can run this way barefoot with the heel touching the ground first, no problem.

When a jogger heel strikes in front of his body with all his weight he's braking himself. Training shoes with high heels makes this kind of heel striking easy while in barefoot you wouldn't survive very long.

So you can mix up the dorsiflexion of elite runners with true heel striking all you want but you should be aware of it.

HHH wrote:

This line of arguing just weakens your overall argument, you should give it up. I forget who said it, might have been Renato, but the biggest difference between the North American minimalists and Kenyan runners is that Kenyan runners are intelligent enough to put on shoes as soon as they can afford them.

Btw thank your for the quote supporting my argument. They will put shoes on as soon as they can afford it. That is my point. What were you thinking?

They DO take their shoes off every few days. There have been numerous interviews posted on here in which professional runners are quoted as saying I do X barefoot with Y frequency. doping and not wearing shoes are not mutually exclusive.