People on this website do know that crunches dont do sh*t right??

I am replying to my own post for the sake of a few prior posters on here who were inquiring about how to get "defined abs." This method of core that I just described definitely gave me amazing ab definition for my body. My family is definitely not genetically blessed in this aspect. I'm a female and had never had defined abs before I started focusing on doing a structured core routine at tempo about 2-3 times a week. I also had to eat fairly clean but like you have all mentioned, you tend to do that as runners anyways. If you are simply looking for defined abs, this is your best bet (although it will obviously make you stronger too).

So one crunch takes basically 5 seconds and that would be about a minute to do the initial 12? This is the pace you call "Tempo"?

do lots of planks, because they are epic

Dr. Dorian wrote:

runn wrote:

Yeah but I look so good with that 8 pack. Ilove looking at myself in the mirror and I get a lot of compliments.

You have a talking mirror....no way...

This made me LOL so much. And I agree with a lot of these guys--who cares if they help my running or not. We all don't do them for that reason. Being cut like a diamond has it's own reward.

Crunches make you better at doing crunches.

Neliah2507 wrote:

I'm a female and had never had defined abs before I started focusing on doing a structured core routine at tempo about 2-3 times a week.

#1) Pics? Before, After?

#2) Defined abs = increased chance of being a D-bag.

People on this website know that strength training doesn't do sh*t for distance running.

Haha...ok a couple of replies.

#1. It's simply counting...if it doesn't say 5 seconds on your watch it's OK. It's more just getting used to eccentric loading (putting more effort into having a controlled lowering phase while maintaining a quick concentric phase. So I guess to make it more clear:

UP (1)

Hold/Contract (1)

Lower (3)

...they don't have to be exact seconds but the point is to get you to focus on each phase and recruit more muscle fibers and also focus on breathing.

#2. Crunches will make you better at crunches; however I said I only do up to 25 of them. I do as many as 8 exercises in my routine which focus on all of the major core muscles. I don't always do 8, it depends how demanding they are and also the day. I could give you a good list of exercises if you really want them.

#3. Yes, it gave me more ab definition. No, this was not my main goal. My main goal was to get a stronger core and try to correct some bad posture and lower back problems. While I was pretty psyched to have more noticeable abs, I didn't walk around the gym in my sports bra or go running down the street shirtless. I've never been like that and probably never will. It could be 90 out and I'll still at least have a tank top on. So call me a D-bag if you must.

#4. Also, even though I believe epic planker is being a smartass, I agree that planks are very beneficial. However, I think it's important to put emphasis on both supine and prone plank. I don't see many athletes trying supine planks too often. Also, there are ways to make these a bit more dynamic and geared towards running so you aren't always just holding a stiff/rigid plank. It will make them more challenging and you won't have to sit there doing a plank for 10 minutes at a time to feel a burn.

Please post the "good list of exercises" - thanks!

Do you do any weight lifting?

I'm going to modify what I'm currently doing because since you are basically introducing yourself to core and lifting it's better to keep it basic in order to avoid injury and truly strengthen your muscles

I would do the following workout for the next 4 weeks. Because you are a beginner and should only do core twice a week, it's not necessary to have two rotating workouts yet. However, if any of these exercises are already too easy or become too easy, they can easily be advanced by adding some movements or changing the duration/reps.

Workout A:

1. Prone Plank: 2 X 30-40sec

2. Bird Dogs: 2 X 10/side

3. Glute Bridges: 2 X 12-15 @ Tempo

4. Supine Plank: 2 X 30-40sec

5. Oblique Crunch w/med ball: 2 X 8-10/side @ Tempo

6. Around the World w/med ball: 2 X 8-10/side

A few tips:

Once you can hold a prone plank for 2:00mins or longer it's time to switch up the exercise and add something dynamic to it. You will stop seeing real benefits by holding a plank for hours just because you can (kind of like junk mileage). Let me know and we'll change it.

Secondly, bird dogs are more important than you think. They teach you how to stabilize your lower pelvis and also force you to use inner core muscles like the erector spinae. This is extremely important for running and biomechanics; do not skip over these. They do not need to be done at any type of tempo. Simply make sure that you are keeping your hips as STILL as possible and your lower back as straight as possible. You can go as slow as you need as long as your form is good.

Third, the same rule applies to the supline plank as the prone plank. Once you get to 2:00mins and it feels easy, even after 3 sets, it's time to change the exercise.

Fourth, oblique crunches with a medball are really great because you only need to do a small amount of reps instead of doing 50 side crunches. If you want bang for your buck this is definitely one of those exercises.

To do the side crunch:

Lay on your side holding a med ball that is comfortably heavy for the exercise. I use 8 lbs right now (110lb/female) so I guess just use your judgement and if you need something heavier/lighter it should be close to that. Laying on your side with your knees bent, hold the medicine ball back over your head so it is just behind your ear -- KEEP it there. Crunch upward quickly (count of 1), HOLD the crunch (count 1) and really focus on contracting at your side/obliques, then slowly and controlled, lower back down for a count of 3. You will find out quickly why I have you starting at 8-10 crunches per side. I do about 2 X 20/side but it took me awhile to get there.

And last, around the worlds are also using a medball. I tend to use the same weight for both this exercise and the oblique crunches. However, feel free to change it to your ability.

To do around the worlds:

Stand near a mirror with your side facing the mirror so you can see that your back/hipslegs are straight. Hold the med-ball straight above your head with your arms straight. SLOWLY move the medball around in a complete circle keeping your arms as straight as possible (bending them a little is ok and will happen). Watch in the mirror and focus on your lower back/hips -- are you starting to curve/bend at the waist or back? Is your pelvis starting to lean forward? Correct yourself as you keep doing the exercise. I do 2 sets of 10 full circles on each side. It's Challenging so if you can only do 6-8 circles/side that's fine. Play around with teh weight and what you feel comfortable with. This exercise is also great for your arms and shoulders and even upper back which you will notice.

hahaha . . . cracking up at people giving Dr. Dorian a homework assignment and then him doing it.

Hey, Dorian, can you do an anatomy assignment for me? What makes doctors such a-holes?

Could you give a couple progressions for bird dogs? Love the exercise, but I feel I've hit the end.

Also, the myrtle routine seems to me to do much the same as bird dogs, but all the prone (hands and knees) hip mobility stuff in it just seems like (for your deep abs anyway) doing variations of the same thing.

Also, am I missing something from way back when Dr. D recommended a plank progression where you raise both arm and leg from the same side of your body? This strikes me as about the same as a 0-legged squat.

Dear Santa,

I want a pair of Vibram's (size 10) and for people on this website to take more interest in their PR's and less interest in how their abs look in the mirror.

I can't believe this thread has actually gone this far. Dr. Dorian is the name of the main character on Scrubs, that's where the name is from. I am not a doctor, although I am an excersise physiology major. I know my stuff. I'm giving the people on here a couple of core excersises, but I'm not going to waste time by writing each individual person a program that fits them. You seem to know everything there is to know about core fitness I see, but I guess anyone could goodle why crunches are good for running and how too many planks are bad just to try to seem smart and insult someone via the internet.

It's just hard to think that people running almost 10 min pace are putting in 100+ miles a week, but if you like walking 100 miles a week, all power to you.

Neliah2507 knows what she's talking about. Listen to her. Neliah2507, I give you credit to write out that whole training program and explain it, kudos.

Haha.. thanks Dr. Dorian. I was bored while waiting for my laundry to dry so I didn't mind.

As for the poster who asked for a progression for bird dogs I have a couple of points..

1) You are right in the sense that they become "easy" rather quickly. You won't feel the "burn" in your superficial abs like you do with other exercises.

2) However, even though they feel easy, they are a REALLY good exercise to simply keep in your routine and use as a warm-up into more demanding core movements. The reason being because it's forcing you to use the deep/inner core musces (as you said). A lot of times we go to do a more difficult exercise first and it's hard to really get those muscles firing or even concentrate on them. Doing bird-dogs (even though they feel easy) will help stimulate those muscles surrounding your spine and you will be using them more throughout your workout without even really knowing it.

I do know some exercises that are more challenging...

Have you ever used resistance cables? They are AWESOME because you can pick up a package at any places that sells basic fitness equipment. They come in different lengths and thicknesses depending upon the size/strength of the person and the exercise you are doing. They are really easy to travel with and bring anywhere with you when you want to be able to do a short workout so you are doing at least something that day. Also, you can literally do anything with them (core, lifting, pushing, pulling, jumping, etc).

It would take me a long time to type out all of the types of exercises, but I will suggest a few for your erector spinae:

1. Pushes

2. Pulls

3. Choppers

4. Retractions

I found a really good youtube video that will demonstrate how you can do it at home. And no, for all the people criticizing, I did not just Google this sh*t because I'm bored. I do it myself on a regular basis. The key is to be patient and wait to see the results. You should feel a difference in your posture within about 2 weeks if you follow a STRUCTURED workout on a regular basis.

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_FbCa38hbw

Now keep in mind, this guy is doing it as a workout. You don't need to be out of breath or hammering away at these because you obviously get your cardio in during your runs. Also, if you watch, it's a great arm workout and you can also do lowerbody stuff as well. But it's all based around your core. I like this one because he shows how to use the cables at home. It's also part I of III videos. I haven't watched all 3 but I have watched this one and would use it myself.

One last thing - obviously this is a LONG workout in this video. No one who spends the majority of their energy on running is going to want to do this 2-3 times a week. I'm simply suggesting it as a few progression ideas from bird dogs (which again, work your erector spinae).

With the cable exercises, because your body is forced to remain upright, straight, and balanced as you either push/pull/chop with the cable, you are REALLY working these muscles. It's also good because you are standing up straight which is much closer to running posture.

Hope this helps, and sorry this post was rather long.

Ok one more point (I know, my millionth one) that I wanted to make...

I always read posts on this site that ask "Well why should I do it if the Kenyan's don't do it?"

Well, ARE YOU Kenyan?? No. Do most Americans have a genetic history of being lazy/sedentary/overweight? YES. We also have a bad history of heart diease, asthma, diabetes, etc. This isn't to criticize anyone reading this. But what they Kenyan's HAVE done for centuries is take care of their bodies and eat healthily. This isn't to say that none of us as runners don't, most of us do. However, it won't erase all the crappy genetics and problems handed down to us. They have a huge lead in running performance because of this.

Also, who ISN'T to say that they wouldn't benefit from core work? How do they know it wouldn't make them even FASTER? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. The point is everyone is physically different.

I can tell you one thing that I personally noticed from sticking with a core routine and logging my progression - my long runs are SO much less tiring. Even on the windiest day, my form isn't breaking down and leaving me half slumped over as I'm on mile 17. I feel strong. I run strong. I get tired eventually, but I know the work I'm doing is paying off and I love it.

So, to end my mini-rant, no one is forcing anyone to do abs or core. You don't need defined abs to be a runner. But I wish someone had explained to me in detail the benefits of actual true core workouts, especially for running.

gee, thanks for showing up Doc