Hey Pete Gilmore/BroJos (re: front page quote)

Kevin Hanson wrote:

Great quote of the day. I could not agree more. Pete nailed it.

+1

Why reinvent the wheel?

When Pete's and Keith's guys are beating Africans training a the same level and mileage as their guys, then this may hold true. But until then, instead of blaming it on genetics, why ignore Economy?

If you compare the mechanics of any 20 month old child on any continent to another, you will see little deviation from one to the other. If you compare these children's mechanics to the best African runners, you would still see little deviation because the elite African runners reinforced the mechanics and the skill they learned at a young age. If we compared these children's mechanics to American runners, we would see a huge deviation in the way they move vs. the way we move and this is the underlying difference in performance between African and American runners.

So do the miles and also work on ecomony if you think it matters.

All of which gives us a little insight into why the Cornell Cross Country program has just been tearing up the Ivy League these past years...

backinmyday wrote:

it's just a bunch of has-beens trying to inflate their achievements with 'uphill both ways in the snow' kinds of stories. LRC merely takes anything these guys say insofar as it verifies what they believe

in 20 years people will tell stories about how geb drank gasoline to stay hydrated, ate only what he could catch with his bare hands, smoked a pack a day, and ran 200 mpw

Meanwhile, a bunch of never-was-es and never-will-be-s keep telling us that less is more while they continue to get smoked by the rest of the world.

I'll bet you broke at 18 at your Turkey Trot 5k, didn't you, Stud?

high mileage works wrote:

Yes, high mileage works, but with over 85% of the American running population injured each year, there's something obviously wrong with the way they are running.

OK, I just have to ask, but who promised that you wouldn't get injuries while running? Seriously, this has to be asked. I started running in 1978 and as I was coming up through the ranks and training, there wasn't a single old timer that i knew that thought that you wouldn't have injuries. Many of those old timers were happy when better shoes came along, some weren't.

But, when world class runners get injuries, like Bekele and Geb, runners who are so far out of the stratosphere with regards to talent and motivation, what makes us think that we ordinary mortals won't, somehow, someday, get an injury??

East African comparison is silly. It is not like running economy is something that young Kenyans are working on. They are not out running drills. THEY ARE JUST RUNNING. If you want to improve as a runner.........RUN MORE. Pete is right on. Americans are always looking for a reason that they fail. You have guys running 70 miles a week that are moving their families to altitude for an advantage. Try running 140 miles a week for 3-4 years and see how that works.

Older than willing to admit wrote:

East African comparison is silly. It is not like running economy is something that young Kenyans are working on. They are not out running drills. THEY ARE JUST RUNNING. If you want to improve as a runner.........RUN MORE. Pete is right on. Americans are always looking for a reason that they fail. You have guys running 70 miles a week that are moving their families to altitude for an advantage. Try running 140 miles a week for 3-4 years and see how that works.

That's right!!

Those Kenyans and Ethiopians just run around and do whatever they feel like! No extra training at all! No weights, no drills, no warm up. They just run!

ohh, oops, people who say this have never watched them do anything. They just make assumptions

Sometimes it's not in the high mileage itself that you see the value in it, but rather what it's like without it.

After years of 120 mile weeks in my early twenties, I essentially did the same workouts and dropped the mileage to about 50 miles per week. After the "taper" effect wore off and a few PR's at some shorter distances. Everything went on a steady course of reversal. I slowed at every distance. Two years later, my high school body came back and I essentially raced like one. Gone was the monster I had become.

Or so I thought. When I finally graduated from college. I went on the war path. I essentially declared I would never run less than 18 miles a day again and did a celebretory 18 mile run on a cinder track in Indiana. It was horribly difficult, but I continued the 18 mile streaks in two runs per day thereafter.

A few years later everything once again went 180 degrees again. I watched my body go through the morphings again and before long I was kicking Kenyan ass.

I am still running 50+.

Interesting debate you have started.

We are missing one element in all of this dialog , pace , average turnover.

Ive noticed over the years being around all the different groups , a very high percentage of miles under 6 min pace. Comfortable miles. Not with the intent of going out to run sub 6 pace , more of just comfortable this feels good run.

A Ethiopian coach explained that a flow is developed these faster miles become common , you are closer to marathon pace on a average.

Someone here mentioned Steve Jones , If Im correct his average pace was very quick per run.

Before the big miles get added quality is something that we should blend into the formula. Todays world class marathoner is different . Sub 2:08 is the accepted standard just to be in the mix.

notpoliticallycorrect wrote:

That's right!!

Those Kenyans and Ethiopians just run around and do whatever they feel like! No extra training at all! No weights, no drills, no warm up. They just run!

ohh, oops, people who say this have never watched them do anything. They just make assumptions

http://adidas.flotrack.org/speaker/main/video/id/1555-Haile-Gebrselassie/vid/363222-Haile-Geb-WOW-NYC-Prephttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU_1uApC7kw

Thanks for re-posting these. Quality links.

Even Abebe Bikila, the "primitive barefoot runner" in Rome (gad--50 years ago, now!), did a lot more than just run.

Ethiopia was also, while not an eastern bloc nation, very much in the Soviet sphere of influence for many years. Many of it coaches and athletes trained and were educated in the soviet system, which emphasized total fitness and nutrition. While the Ethiopian Athletic Federation does seem to exercise an inordinate amount of control over it's athletes (as does the Kenyan), it also does a good job of creating that "soviet" style of training environment, it seems, where it's all about training, 24/7.

And John Cook, a native of Germany, based his famous "drills" system, I'm pretty sure, on training methods he learned from eastern bloc coaches. Specifically one coach from eastern Germany whose name I can't remember. Manzano and Rowburry do alot more than just run. It's total fitness. The soviets and east germans knew what they were doing (plus they doped and 'roided them to the gills).

polar bear wrote:

plus they doped and 'roided them to the gills.

... which is the sole reason why the "total fitness" routine seemed to work so well. Remove the drugs and the Eastern Bloc-heads would have been a bunch of hammered-into-the-ground, interval-trained gymnasts that couldn't run continuous distance for Scheiße.