If Ritz ran a poor marathon after training under Hanson or Mahon then I would agree that maybe the 5/10 are his better events. Currently it s impossible to know.
This would be like having him train with a hurdle coach and then complain that he is not able to long jump. Distance running is currently way too specialized to have a marathoner training with a 5/10 coach.
Making arm-chair assumptions? Like you?
His physiology may indicate that maybe the distance is not his cup of tea? Really?
---------------------------------------------------------You don't run 20 miles in training at the pace he did and then say going 10k longer, in a race mind you, is not his cup of tea. Give me a break dude. Wow, I cannot believe the mentality of some of the posters on this thread. Scary!
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I've spoken about the money issue, so you agree with me there. He does this for a living, of course he's going to get paid.
Hopefully he DOES get signed up to run a spring marathon and doesn't comment on it (aka, talk it to death), but instead just trains hard, hopefully injury free, and rips a good one.
Will it matter to the LR crowd, probably not. Ryan Hall goes 2:06 plus 2.5 years ago and he's washed up, yet he isn't even 30. Dathan is a very, very capable runner who WILL pop a good one and then the naysayers will go into hiding.
Sorry, but YOUR post was nothing but an arm-chair assumption and very newbie-ish, if that's a word:)
how about this analogy:
a guy at work tells you he is going to run the NYC marathon in under 3 hours. Tells everyone in the office about his goal. Posts his training log on the bulletin board in the break room. Tells everyone in the office endless stories about trying new shoes, orthotics, nagging injuries, hiring a coach, etc. Tells you of his plans to fly out to NYC in first class so his legs don't cramp up sitting in coach. Flies his chiropractor, physical therapist, and nutritionist out as well, to make sure he's aligned, fueled and well prepared for the race.
He also tells you how he'd be disappointed if he "just" ran 3:00, because he feels he is capable of 2:45. To add to it he gets written up in the local paper.
Then he goes out and runs 3:30.
No one has a problem with 3:30, or someone trying their best and coming up short. but when you talk too much, you open yourself up to criticism. just saying.
big apple wrote:
Opening paragraph:
As the saying goes, all the money in the world can’t buy happiness. It can’t buy love. And for Dathan Ritzenhein, it couldn’t buy a faster marathon.
Nike has dumped dollar after dollar into the Ritz project, including high-tech gait analysis, custom footbeds, and coach Alberto Salazar overseeing form tinkering. Earlier in the week, Nike flew in a "cryosauna" to New York for their flagship American athlete to get one last dousing of liquid nitrogen. But when it comes down to it, it only matters how fast you run and how well you place.
http://newyorkmarathon.runnersworld.com/2010/11/ritzenhein-still-waiting-for-breakout-marathon.htmlDidn't know about the cryosauna.
What a ridiculous argument. I'm the last one to be a fan of Rupp, but I am so sick of people declaring that his or Ritz's failure is even greater just because they have access to technology. I don't even really believe in any of that crap. Most of the world's best distance runners are made in the woods and the mountains, not the laboratory. BUT, that makes my point even more relevant. If all of this technology stuff doesn't really do anything, than how does it make Ritz's failure greater? HE HAD A BAD DAY. It happens to every single human being. Especially in a marathon, everything has to be perfect. Spot on. Especially to reach your absolute potential. He just didn't have it.
The snide tone of that article disgusts me. Why are magazines and websites that hire such obviously unknowledgable writers? Have these people never run, never competed? Why are you allowed to write a marathon op-ed for Runners World if you've never dedicated your life to distance running? Or if you're that out of touch with your own experience?
Ritz ran 12:56. Where were these idiots then? The guy is a warrior and he will back in some shape or form in 2011.
titus wrote:
how about this analogy:
a guy at work tells you he is going to run the NYC marathon in under 3 hours. Tells everyone in the office about his goal. Posts his training log on the bulletin board in the break room. Tells everyone in the office endless stories about trying new shoes, orthotics, nagging injuries, hiring a coach, etc. Tells you of his plans to fly out to NYC in first class so his legs don't cramp up sitting in coach. Flies his chiropractor, physical therapist, and nutritionist out as well, to make sure he's aligned, fueled and well prepared for the race.
He also tells you how he'd be disappointed if he "just" ran 3:00, because he feels he is capable of 2:45. To add to it he gets written up in the local paper.
Then he goes out and runs 3:30.
No one has a problem with 3:30, or someone trying their best and coming up short. but when you talk too much, you open yourself up to criticism. just saying.
Sounds like working with Jason Rahm.
Ummmmm....that what I was saying, thanks for being in agreement.
But...if you are comparing this guy to Dathan in terms of ability, you're comparing apples to oranges friend.
Anyone who can barely break 3 hours would not suddenly believe they can 2:45 "unless" they ran a race or two prior coupled with training that would back up such a claim.
Dathan going from 2:10 flat, coupled with his ability and proven times would have a lot easier time dropping 2-3 minutes versus your example of someone dropping 15 minutes! Again, apples and oranges.
As far as talking too much, that is exactly what I'm saying and have said in more than one response. There is a definite mental approach to it, not just physical. He's got nowhere to go but down, even in his eyes, because he won't be satisfied with anything less "after all of the predictions".
If you follow through on them, the world is great, if not it is easy to feel let down and humbled by a race that is never a guarantee, not even for Haile.
As I said, he should have run his race and locked onto 4:50ish and many would have tagged along if not even took over the lead. If he can do it in a workout, he can do it in a race. I don't know Malmo and agree with a lot of what he says, but sorry, I don't think he left his race in the workout Malmo. No way!
Two very easy example are both Meyer and Salazar. Meyer set the 10 mile record of 46:13 a few weeks before his Boston Marathon victory of 2:09. The year before, Alberto ran a 27:30 against Henry Rono, finishing .1 behind the great runner. He did this on April 8th and ran the Boston Marathon 11 days later!!!!!, winning in a tough battle against Dick Beardsley on April 19th, in the heat and breaking 2:09.
Sorry, Dathan didn't leave his race in his workout, but many will argue against me, typical LR trolls.
Disgest but please swallow first.
factuallyaccurate wrote:
at least ritz expressed disappointment, even embarassment at having run poorly after all the hype. hall would be pointing to the space-ghost and deluding himself into satisfaction
Hall's most recent finishes in marathons are 4th, 4th, and 3rd. Ritz placed 8th in New York. If I'm not mistaken, this is the *highest* he's ever placed in an international marathon.
Hall may not have matched his ridiculous 2:06 (or proved that it was anything other than a fluke), but if he's satisfied with his marathon performance then he's got some justification.
20 miles is a far cry from 26.2, most who have run sub 3 hr marathons will tell you this.
It would seem that Ritz could "sit and kick" given his 5k PR but I think his injury problems and problems after mile 20 of the marathon are connected. He's overall a fragile runner for some reason.
His engine is just as good or better than those who beat him but the muscle damage he seems to suffer at around 20 miles makes him unable to run under 5 min pace. I'm not sure how to train to correct this but maybe people on this thread are right, maybe he just doesn't have the muscular toughness to be a great marathoner.
He ran 60 flat for half which only predicts a 2:07 marathon if you're muscles aren't destroyed those last several miles. I bet he was sore on Monday - muscle damage.
okey dokey then wrote:
Two very easy example are both Meyer and Salazar. Meyer set the 10 mile record of 46:13 a few weeks before his Boston Marathon victory of 2:09. The year before, Alberto ran a 27:30 against Henry Rono, finishing .1 behind the great runner. He did this on April 8th and ran the Boston Marathon 11 days later!!!!!, winning in a tough battle against Dick Beardsley on April 19th, in the heat and breaking 2:09.
Sorry, Dathan didn't leave his race in his workout, but many will argue against me, typical LR trolls.
.
You're an idiot. A 10k and a 10 mile race is a far cry from 20 miles. Ritz left his nuts on the workout track.
Right back at ya. Do you have a clue as to what Alberto and Greg ran their long runs in back in the day? I thought not.
Why don't top 10k runners double anymore in the Olympics? Duh, cause they know the outcome. Alberto ran an all-out 10k against one of the greatest runners in the world at that time and then 11 days later ran a sub 2:09.
When did Dathan run this 20 mile workout? 3 and half weeks before the marathon oh bright one. No different than this runner or that runner racing a half marathon a month out to see where they're at.
Are you saying he didn't recover in that amount of time? Are you saying it's all over, he can never run fast because of "that" workout. More LR mentality. I rest my case which proves you are the idiot. Here come the trolls.
You need to be tough to run a marathon fast. It seems all the marathoners from days gone by did things most modern marathoners would consider suicidal. Examples like Clayton training fast all the time or the examples of Meyer and Salazar racing before marathons.
In my opinion you can't coddle the marathon. Reminds me of something Sell figured out after some bad marathons. It seems he would taper too much and after talking to Peter Gilmore decided he needed to run more instead of less (something like over 100 miles including the marathon that week). Benji Durden raced like every week for a few months leading up to the Oly Trials marathon.
20 miles at marathon pace is a great indicator workout but it can't just be the indicator, you need to do the workout a lot to get that marathon durability. I feel Ritz was well rested and maybe that was the problem. Fast marathons for Americans seem to come from those that were tough enough to race and push themselves almost daily. Despite, I really think he will eventually run under 2:07, I just don't know when.
A lot of those posting in this thread with absolute self-assurance are, I suspect, those who insisted with equally absolute self-assurance that Geb was going to win the race.
Not.
The marathon is a humbling race. Ritz hasn't gotten it quite figured out yet. But even the former winners (Ramaala, Santos) didn't do well this year, and Geb's failure was notable.
Armchair quarterbacking is way too easy.
Ritz didn't have a bad race. He just didn't have a great race. He had an OK race. Even so, he beat a couple of world-class guys.
I think the 20-mile tempo run tweet (as it were) was a mistake. A little more circumspection would be good.
I'm still a fan of Ritz's, after that World 1/2 marathon race. He strikes me as a great half marathoner who hasn't managed to retool himself as a marathoner.
Regardless, American distance running is doing pretty well these days, even if Hall and Ritz aren't living up to their own marathoning dreams, and ours.
Yeah, I think it was a fine race. The first mile was almost 6 minutes. I think each of the top 10 could have run that first mile in 5 flat and completed as they did. So for my dollar his time was more like 2:11 and change, not far off his PR and a much more difficult and tactical race. Anyone who runs under 2:20 gets the utmost respect from me.
Ritz took the money and ran. Many would have in a similar situation. Had he skipped NY and trained through until spring and remained healthy a sub 2:10 was possible in Boston or London. NY knew this and also understood he was injured most of the year. Appearance money offered anyway. A big PR by Ritz elsewhere probably wasn't viewed with great pleasure by NY.
Ritz might have taken a pass. But he didn't - his pride was hurt but his pocketbook was not.
I wish I could have a bad day and run 2:12.
All of this Bill Rodgers and Greg Meyer love has to be taken with a grain of salt. There was a HUGE tailwind when they killed it at Boston.
okey dokey then wrote: More LR mentality. I rest my case which proves you are the idiot. Here come the trolls.
For some reason this guy just cracks me up.
With all the talent Ritz has there is no reason in the World why he should not be running in the 2:07-2:08 range.
Salazar may think he is coaching him conservatively but in reality he may be asking Ritz to do too much.
Remember that Salazar ran himself into the ground and early retirement because he trained too hard. Although he did have some excellent results.
Ritz seems very fragile to me and may have to be trained at a much lower mileage volume than Salazar thinks.
Read some of the stuff Amby Burfoot has said about training with Rodgers and his lifestyle, smoking, diet and such. Rodgers's level of talent and his times almost makes you laugh in light of all of these things. And quite a character from what I've heard :)