o.O wrote:
I find it funnier that its a bunch of male former athletes complaining about a questionable female running a race.
There's nothing funny about trying to retain integrity in the sport, no matter whether it's men or women making the case. If and when CS breaks the WR, it'll be the biggest joke record in sports. But not a funny joke.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
'What about if you had an STD? A history of drug abuse? Were taking psychiatric meds? Still wouldn't bother you?'
Yes, it would and just like Caster I would not want the results published because I would have something to hide
Do you have to look at it as "something to hide" as opposed to "it's my personal business"? If you had depression and were on some psych meds, is that "something to hide" or "personal information"? Is your bank balance "something to hide" or "personal information"?
Did you never consider that it’s a borderline case? It would be difficult to prove in court one way or the other and because Caster has massive legal backing the IAAF has backed down.
Massive legal backing? She's not Bill Gates, but rather a junior athlete from a poor part of the country. Remember the IAAF is an international organization who completely ignored Butch Reynolds winning $25 million lawsuit.
11 month is too long. With enough $ you could run all those tests in a matter of weeks
Which specific tests are you referring to that can be done "in a matter of weeks"? Do you know what they are and how long they usually take? I thought your argument was that this was new ground being broken, not a matter of looking up in the medical cookbook for an off-the-shelf solution.
You mentioned people like me well are you like those people who think Gatlin was innocent- twice! ie Gullible
What is the relevance? Gatlin was a cheater who deliberately did something he knew was blatantly against the rules. Just how does that compare with the Semenya case?
Which specific tests are you referring to that can be done "in months"? You don't know any more than I do
'What is the relevance? Gatlin was a cheater who deliberately did something he knew was blatantly against the rules. Just how does that compare with the Semenya case?'
Do you struggle with simple comprehension. I meant you sound like the sort of person who thinks Gatlin is innocent. At least you don't believe that
Neither of us know the facts. You can stick to yours but you are not going pursuade me or the majority of people that she should be competing without further disclosure
As for her being poor. Maybe once, not know.
By the way I would not fancy being your wing man in a night club!
Half the world considers her a man or something imbetween. Would a medical discosure not be in her own interests?
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Which specific tests are you referring to that can be done "in months"? You don't know any more than I do
I'm not the one stating with authority that the tests should have been completed within a few weeks. Neither of us knows so it is rather presumptuous to act as if we know more than the experts involved.
As for her being poor. Maybe once, not know.
Still a long way off from "massive legal backing". It's not like she's pulling in Bolt-type appearance and prize money.
Would a medical discosure not be in her own interests?
There has been medical disclosure. Experts have spent months on the subject and announced they are satisfied she is female. That is medical disclosure. Just because you want juicy details does not mean you are entitled to them.
I truly don't understand how ANYONE can take the position that this 'really doesn't matter', or 'Semenya's a woman, so shut up' etc. From all the medical information that has been made public (unofficially) Semenya is essentially biologically male with external femal genitalia. That's it: for all practical purposes, 'she' is a man.
THIS WHOLE THING STINKS.
you consider someone with a vagina a man?
old tymer wrote:
From all the medical information that has been made public (unofficially) Semenya is essentially biologically male with external femal genitalia. That's it: for all practical purposes, 'she' is a man.
If Semenya is essentially biologically male, then wouldn't that make an easy suit to defend for the IAAF? Why are some here saying they are afraid of loosing such a lawsuit if they have such a straightforward and strong case?
Or might it be possible that you, like the rest of us, don't really have all the facts the experts do?
'Experts have spent months on the subject and announced they are satisfied she is female. That is medical disclosure. Just because you want juicy details does not mean you are entitled to them.'
As far as I know the IAAF cleared her to compete, there has been no announcement from the medical experts
'Still a long way off from "massive legal backing".:
Semenya's hopes of resuming her career were raised last month when, on the eve of the football World Cup, South African sports minister Makhenkesi Stofile called a news conference in Johannesburg to announce that she had been cleared to run. Last year, Stofile had threatened "Third World War" if Semenya was prevented from racing by the IAAF.
!
The IAAF didn't want Semenya to compete as soon as she tested positive for man at the African juniors last year.
All the messing around since has been trying to find a way around Semenya's huge legal backing that would allow them to stop her from running.
They tried for 11 months but failed. All this talk about 'experts coming to a decision' is all a smokescreen. They knew the score right from the start.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
As far as I know the IAAF cleared her to compete, there has been no announcement from the medical experts
They cleared her to compete after consulting with the experts who spent 11 months looking at the issue. I thought you knew about that?
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Last year, Stofile had threatened "Third World War" if Semenya was prevented from racing by the IAAF.
So because some junior government minister (and the 'sports ministry' is not exactly the highest of ministerial portfolios) spouts off with hyperbole of a 'third world war', that automatically means there is 'massive legal backing'?
He threatened outright military hostilities, not a legal challenge.
Um, yeah wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:Last year, Stofile had threatened "Third World War" if Semenya was prevented from racing by the IAAF.
So because some junior government minister (and the 'sports ministry' is not exactly the highest of ministerial portfolios) spouts off with hyperbole of a 'third world war', that automatically means there is 'massive legal backing'?
He threatened outright military hostilities, not a legal challenge.
Do you seriously read that statement as them actually threatening military hostilities rather than a legal challenge?!?
Even for letsrun this is a new low...
King Author wrote:
you consider someone with a vagina a man?
If a soldier has his penis blown off and vaginal like opening made to piss out of, but the balls remain functional, would you consider that man to be a woman? Semenya is a man, who can reproduce as a man (with medical aid) with a woman.
Bryn_R wrote:
Do you seriously read that statement as them actually threatening military hostilities rather than a legal challenge?!?
Do you seriously read that statement to mean he's actually going to find the money to fund a 'massive legal challenge'?
He's a junior minister spouting his mouth off. Not exactly the sort of thing the IAAF should be taking fully seriously (as in using as the sole basis on which to allow Semenya to compete as a female).
King Author wrote:
you consider someone with a vagina a man?
You consider someone with internal testes a woman?
Um, yeah wrote:
Are you privy to the IAAF conducted medical tests which lead them to conclude she can compete in the female category?
I didn't know there were so many tranny lovers on letsrun.
Have you all forgotten about this?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/6078171/World-Athletics-Caster-Semenya-tests-show-high-testosterone-levels.htmlTelegraph Sport can also reveal that the head coach of the South African team is Dr Ekkart Arbeit, the former East German coach who was accused by a female athlete of giving her so many anabolic steroids that she was forced to undergo a sex-change operation and live the rest of her life as a man.
Heidi Krieger, who underwent surgery in 1997 and now lives in Germany as Andreas Krieger, has always blamed Arbeit for the role he played in supervising her drug regime under East Germany’s state-sponsored doping programme.
She did have massive legal backing - that "junior" minister to whom you refer is the highest official for sport in South Africa and while his influence with the IAAF will be limited, there were very powerful political forces here in South Africa that fought the battle.
Legally, she was represented by the same law firm who represented Oscar Pistorius - they became famous, incidentally, because when South Africa's government changed, they were one of the firms that handled our Truth And Reconciliation hearings. Kind of like the Hague in SA. So it's fair to say that globally, they're one of the big firms - offices in NY, and here.
Just on the note of medical testing, UKAthleticscoach is quite right - the testing and diagnosis of conditions is not difficult. 20 minutes is all it takes to establish if someone has a uterus or not (of course, if the person has internal testes, they don't have a uterus). Another few hours and you have a very clear picture of what has happened biologically. A couple of days for genetic test results, a couple more for hormonal.
All in all, you know exactly what biological condition you're dealing with in a week or two. It's not that complex.
What is complex is deciding what to do with this information. You could decide that the biological differences do NOT confer a performance advantage, or that they do. this is the essence of the debate, i guess. But the 11-month delay is NOT due to medical guys sorting out the issues medically, that was the PR and legal spin.
The only reason for that delay could be:
a) There was a legal arm-wrestle which saw Semenya's lawyers pulling out the rights issue and compelling the IAAF to allow her to run on the grounds that they could not find evidence to ban her (this is much what Pistorius succeeded at doing). Or
b) The IAAF have worked with Semenya to supervise and administer medical treatment in an attempt to reduce the testosterone levels and thus the advantage. The medical experts thus being referred to would be guys who are evaluating how her hormone levels are changing with the treatment (oestrogen and knocking out testosterone production).
Nice post. A rarity here.
Ross Tucker wrote:
b) The IAAF have worked with Semenya to supervise and administer medical treatment in an attempt to reduce the testosterone levels and thus the advantage. The medical experts thus being referred to would be guys who are evaluating how her hormone levels are changing with the treatment (oestrogen and knocking out testosterone production).
Even if she's getting medical treatment, this doesn't replace the fact that she had 19 years of physiological and developmental benefits from posessing testes.