Anyone want to help a slowpoke?

Sebastian Bamboo wrote:

Interesting Malmo, and Thanks very much for posting your advice , just curious, some coaches wouldnt recommend you ever workout that hard, i.e. to the point of "tasting blood and very dizzy afterwards," except in a race. What would you say to those coaches?

I wouldn't say anything to them. They are way too inexperienced to voice an opinion if they don't recognize a common experience from middle distance training sessions.

Malmo, thanks so much for the advice. I've read the links you provided and will follow your trianing suggestions.

I'm actually excited to hear that you reccomend I taste blood and feel dizzy after the 10 x 400 session. I've never been injured during my short running life and have done what I consider some pretty hard workouts in marathon training. So I'm not too concerned with getting run down and/or injured by a very hard workout.

I've often wondered if I'm traing "hard enough" in some workouts...I guess I'll find out!

malmo is right about the speed work. You have to do this to be a good distance runner, otherwise you will be training hard and getting nowhere. So many older runners avoid this type of training, and so many coaches are clueless about the proper application of different paces.

Some of the speed sessions are fun, and some are just hard.

Pure speed work is most effective about 4-3 months before a Marathon, before you start the more specific Marathon training.

I don't know about tasting blood? I never felt that after very hard sessions.

how fast arethese 400's? mile pace? all out?

wellnow wrote:

I don't know about tasting blood? I never felt that after very hard sessions.

It's a very common experience, especially on warm days.

I'm not fast wrote:

I'm not too concerned with getting run down and/or injured by a very hard workout.

Malmo, thanks for reminding everyone what mile workouts feel like!

You won't get injured provided you ease into wearing spikes; when you get a pair, wear them for a few strides or the last rep or two, and transition to the full session over 3-4 sessions.

The pain of the 10x400 is temporary and will have receded back to 'bearable' about 90 seconds later, otherwise how else would you do the reps. The dizzy bit - sure, you might feel pretty dazed for a while; make sure you do a cooldown jog. A well-deserved cold beer will resolve any remaining issues.

how fast for 400's? wrote:

how fast arethese 400's? mile pace? all out?

About mile target pace. I reccomend gradually reducing the recovery from 90 seconds down to 60 with a 10 second reduction every 2 weeks. You don't need to do this session every week, in fact to train effectively at every pace you need 2-4 weeks.

But before you do this session you need to be well trained in shorter reps of 150-300m fast, some with longer recovery for more speed and some with shorter recovery for more speed endurance.

malmo wrote:

wellnow wrote:

I don't know about tasting blood? I never felt that after very hard sessions.

It's a very common experience, especially on warm days.

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You mean there is actually blood in your mouth?

I have never noticed any taste in my mouth during my hardest training.

how fast for 400's? wrote:

how fast arethese 400's? mile pace? all out?

I should have added that it depends how many you do. 6-10 at mile pace is usual, more for the very top runners.

A long distance runner might also do 4 almost flat out with long recoveries, 5-7 minutes. You know this is going well when each one is faster and smoother, and the last one is a PR or close to it.

wellnow wrote:

You mean there is actually blood in your mouth?

I have never noticed any taste in my mouth during my hardest training.

No there isn't actually blood in your mouth, it's the perception of the taste of blood. If I have to explain it to you, then it's clear you've never experienced it.

10x 400 at mile pace or mile goal pace. 200 jogs, about 1:00 to 1:15. You might have to scale to jogs to your fitness level. It's OK to start off with 400m rest, but in reality you want 200m.

6x400. This is really geared to 800m runners, so it's at 800 pace or a little slower. Full 400 recovery.

The point of him doing one of thses workouts isn't that he's training to be an 800/1500 type. His gaol should be to retrace his training to get some of that competitive track experience that he never had and to touch base with that kind of speed training to get the neuromuscular timing and strength benefits from it.

malmo would you say the rest is equal to the time run for the 400's to keep things simple?

how fast for 400's? wrote:

malmo would you say the rest is equal to the time run for the 400's to keep things simple?

That's fine. Don't try to overthink this. I'm assuming you just want to start on the same side of the track?

Sorry malmo i dont get your question. But your advice has been oh so helpful=D

A 4:00 miler could do 10x400 in :60 and jog 200 in :60 or a little slower.

For someone who is running :70 400s it might be ambitious to "jog" 200m in 70s, so you would just jog down the track a bit, and turn around and run from the same startline. Makes sense yet?

My times and running experience are similar to the OP. I would just add that the stresses of speed workouts can be tough on a body used to long marathon specific work. It took me a good 4-5 track workouts (4-5 weeks) to get my hammies and feet used to the pounding. I had to dial back and work at 80% or so until i got conditioned a bit. After that, on tough workouts I could go at 95%-allout without risking an injury or the chance of not being able to walk the next day. I'd also second running track workouts in a group. You'll run faster with less effort assuming your group has a good spread of abilities.

I would love to just take Malmo to Kenyan and train in the mountains for a year.

o.O wrote:

I would love to just take Malmo to Kenyan and train in the mountains for a year.

Grasshopper, the grass isn't greener on the other side of the mountain.

Any updates from the OP? How's the training going? Any improvements?