Wow I got Lomong's last 400 at 51.2!!!

good lord wrote:

3) 2:00 through 800 is conservative, 2:15 is ludacris.

Ludicrous.

Unless you mean that this guy was in the race:

Even he could probably run 2:15 for 800 meters.

In 1967 Jim Ryun raced two Germans who had BIG kicks - around 52 to 54 last lap types by the name of Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler. No one in Europe out-kicked Bodo. With 300m to go and 85,000 screaming Germans, Ryun whips out to lane 3 because he was boxed in. He proceeded to run 11.9 back stretch 100m finishing in about 36.4 final 300m and clocking between 49 and 50.2 on his last lap. He ran 3:37 for meters (if memory serves!) and won by 4 seconds in the final 300m over the best European kicker!

Morceli closed in 50.6 in the '93 world champs running 3:34. el g has closed a few races in 51xx including the '97 world champs 1500 (3:35 winning time) and '04 olympics (3:34 winning time). if i recall, el g closed in 53.xx in his 3:26.00 wr race.

most of the field at 2009 pac-10s ran under 53.0 for the last 400

Yah ... like he say ... 51.2 is no big deal when guys of that caliber

"jog" the first 2.6 laps. They could run the last 400 in 51.2 in a

10 k as well ... if they ran all the other laps at 5:30 pace!

Here is my idea... USATF should allow top non-qualifier for the 800m final to run the 1500m final. If the 1500 goes out in 2:15 then he would have a good chance of winning. If the pace is honest, then he will most likely come in last and could drop if he wanted to. The top milers are going be a bit scared to jog for the first couple of laps knowing that this guy is in the field.

The same could be done for the 5k (top 1500m non-Q) and the 10k (top steeple non-Q).

This would keep the race real and would add a bit of excitment for all of us!

What do you think? Is there any downside?

No one in the field would worry about your 800m guy. The top guys are probably faster than him any way. Lomong has run sub 1:46.Offer a 25k bonus for each lap led and someone will take it out fast.

LenZen wrote:

Here is my idea... USATF should allow top non-qualifier for the 800m final to run the 1500m final. If the 1500 goes out in 2:15 then he would have a good chance of winning. If the pace is honest, then he will most likely come in last and could drop if he wanted to. The top milers are going be a bit scared to jog for the first couple of laps knowing that this guy is in the field.

The same could be done for the 5k (top 1500m non-Q) and the 10k (top steeple non-Q).

This would keep the race real and would add a bit of excitment for all of us!

What do you think? Is there any downside?

Les wrote:

In 1967 Jim Ryun raced two Germans who had BIG kicks - around 52 to 54 last lap types by the name of Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler. No one in Europe out-kicked Bodo. With 300m to go and 85,000 screaming Germans, Ryun whips out to lane 3 because he was boxed in. He proceeded to run 11.9 back stretch 100m finishing in about 36.4 final 300m and clocking between 49 and 50.2 on his last lap. He ran 3:37 for meters (if memory serves!) and won by 4 seconds in the final 300m over the best European kicker!

Seriously?

Is there a video of this at all? I knew Jim Ryun loved saving his kicks for the last lap but that is ridiculous.

Word Up! wrote:

2) Then why even bother to show up and run? That argument makes no sense.

3) 2:00 through 800 is conservative, 2:15 is ludacris.

Look at it with a long term approach...running hard from the gun in those conditions can only do more harm than good. My second point helps explain why Noone wanted to essentially sacrifice themselves for the field. I certainly wouldnt go into that race thinking "i cant wait to rabbit this and then get my ass handed to me in the last 700 because I took all the wind". With the season goal of racing fast in europe IN 2 MONTHS, there is no reason these guys need to go out and rip a fast race just to impress the crowd.[/quote]

I obviously didn´t help that Noone sacrificed himself.

jabroniii wrote:

Is there a video of this at all? I knew Jim Ryun loved saving his kicks for the last lap but that is ridiculous.

Actually Ryun usually led from start to finish.

Rui Silva closed in 50.XX in a 3:34 Olympic final in 2004 to take bronze, El G. closeed in 51.XX in the same race for gold. So this guys 51 is not a big deal, it will attract NO attention from the world's top milers. The 2:15 split is indeed embarassing, I've never seen a top field hit 800 that slowly. Yoiks.

I speculate that whatever runners ran in the last 400m is within 2 seconds of their flat out 400 time. So basically, none of these athletes can run faster than 49 in a 400. That sort of surprises me, since milers always did well on the 4x400 at my school. What in the hell is wrong with these runners? El G could have thrown down a 48 to finish this race. Or maybe not... please tell my idols are not this slow!

Les wrote:

In 1967 Jim Ryun raced two Germans who had BIG kicks - around 52 to 54 last lap types by the name of Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler. No one in Europe out-kicked Bodo. With 300m to go and 85,000 screaming Germans, Ryun whips out to lane 3 because he was boxed in. He proceeded to run 11.9 back stretch 100m finishing in about 36.4 final 300m and clocking between 49 and 50.2 on his last lap. He ran 3:37 for meters (if memory serves!) and won by 4 seconds in the final 300m over the best European kicker!

Ryun was phenomenal, but the account I have read of this race is equally vague. All these times would have been taken with hand-held stopwatches, thus all would probably have been about 0.2 sec off any electrical time. The fact that there is no video evidence of this race to back up the claims of these stats is frustrating also.

Equally, the fact that such phrases as "about 36.4" and "between 49 and 50.2" (rather a huge discrepancy don't you think?)are used should lead one to regard these stats as somewhat dubious. The history of Track & Field is littered with inaccuracies or exaggerations. E.g. Aouita's last 100m in 11.8 in his 3:29 in Nice, when someone mistook the 90m from home line as 100m. Aouita is also credited with running a 36.1 last 300m in a 3:34 race in Italy in 84. However, no such video of the race has ever surfaced.

We know about Cacho's 50.** split, or Gonzales 50.0 split or Morceli's 51.** because we can see it for ourselves on Youtube whenever we want.

While I'm not saying Aouita and /or Ryun didn't run stupendous last 300's, the evidence provided isn't overwhelming.

Remember that it was windy and they really only started movng at around 300 or 250 to go. They ran under 37.5 this weekend. Also it must be noted that it is still early in the season and I would imagine that their best races will be in August or late July.

I agree that Lomong is faster than the first non-qualifier in the 800m. I don't think that Lomong would count out a 1:47 800m guy if they jog for 3 laps and then kick. Plus, I think it makes it all more exciting. If the race is taken out hard and the time is fast then the fans win. If the race is dog slow, then the 800 guy has a chance and that is exciting - the fans win.

Giving out money for each lap led would most likely screw up the race entirely. There would be two races, one for the lap money and one for overall victory. Some would go for the cash, some would try to pace it out for the overall win. It would be fun to watch, but a gimmick and not appropriate for a national championship.

I got the info from this thread (which included eyewitnesses)

Hand-timed, his closing 300 would still be phenomenal.

It is disappointing when you are having the national championship of your sport and many of your top athletes don't show. I have to give a lot of respect to Lagat and Symmonds for showing up and competing, despite the lack of top competition and despite the fact that a much more lucrative race awaits them in Oregon shortly after. How many other sports have their top athletes not even show for their national championships? Competing for a national title should be a top priority, despite the lack of prize money. However, that too is part of the problem. Many of our top runners will be going after much bigger paydays at Pre. Why don't we put a lot more into payouts for winning national titles? That Visa Series is a joke. I'm sure the winners don't mind an extra $25k but only $25k...what a joke! Golfers who merely make the cut make a heck of a lot more than that each weekend and they aren't national champions. I do have to give some respect to those like Teg who at least showed up and competed, maybe not in a primary event, but at least he was there. How many races were there runners in the finals that you barely recognized their name or didn't know them at all? I coach track for a living and follow the sport daily, and there were people I didn't even recognize making finals. Something wrong with that picture too.

As for the tactics and the slow race results, particularly in the men's 1500, what's the big deal? That's championship style racing for you. You also had to consider the conditions. Those with big kicks aren't stupid. They were licking their chops when all the other guys weren't smart enough to make it an honest pace. Someone like Teg could have have made it an honest race if he really wanted to have any chance and get anything out of it. The kickers aren't going to work any harder than they have to when they are possible racing a week later with bigger money on the line.

As in most things, it all revolves around money and respect. Our sport doesn't have much of any. Unfortunately, we have a lot of people who don't have enough national pride to compete in their own sport's national championship, even if it is the week before a bigger payday. Perhaps if we are going to ask for more sponsor money, we should first show them that we have everyone competing and we should try filling our stadium with people.

Anyway, that's my take on things.

Pretty much says the same thing.

Smakdab wrote:

Rui Silva closed in 50.XX in a 3:34 Olympic final in 2004 to take bronze, El G. closeed in 51.XX in the same race for gold. So this guys 51 is not a big deal, it will attract NO attention from the world's top milers. The 2:15 split is indeed embarassing, I've never seen a top field hit 800 that slowly. Yoiks.

Yes that 2:15 split is embarassing. And closing in 1:51 for the last 800? Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't El G run 1:47.xx for the last 800 of the 2004 Olympic final?