Skuj wrote:
Tormenter, we are talking 1984.
Actually, hahahaha.....discuss who WAS in that 1924 race. Tell us about them! Go ahead. :)
Do your own homework, you lazy sob.
And while you're at it, look up the word "ever" as in "The Worst Race Tactics Ever."
ever =/= 1984
Mr. Wang wrote:
In all likelihood, Scott got caught up in the "do or die" mentality and, feeling strong after one lap, decided to go for it. This is a form of panic, or choking, and the results bore that out.
To win championship races, you have to ride the razor's edge between serenity and all-out effort. This is difficult when the enormity of the moment makes your insides quake with urgency. Coe and Cram were more confident and prudently dialed up the intensity at an appropriate rate.
The annals of 1500m history are filled with incidences where someone tries, in vain, to bury the field with a ridiculous mid-race surge. More often than not, those moves are the runner's way of saying, "I can't take the pressure anymore... I'm going to end this now," and are made by someone who feels he has little chance of winning.
WOW! This has to be the best post on letsrun I've ever read.
Skuj wrote:
Oh shit how did that happen, hahahaha.....sorry.
It happened because you're an idiot.
Reality checker wrote:
Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.
I'm still waiting. Tell us about those people, please. If you continue to say nothing about them, or just tell me to look it up, then my point is made.
I remember Scott as being forthright in his book about his "choke" in L.A.. This was supposed to be "his" Olympics, being de facto a "local boy",but was up against a stellar field of guys that he had never beaten in major championships, and apparently he barely slept in the days leading up to the final. His move to the front is too sudden, probably a result of adrenaline, and he seems to be second-guessing himself the moment he gets the lead.
Interesting that Coe mkes his kick in this one from longer out than usual, might have caught Crammy flat-footed.
Average_Joe wrote:
If you read his book, he explains why he did it.
Late in 1983 he sat down with Len Miller and they mapped out their options. Understand now, he was going for the gold. Not the bronze or the silver. Gold or nothing.
They realized that most championship 1500 races were slow paced affairs with fast final laps. They realized that such a race would leave a poor kicker like Scott with little chance of the gold. In the 1983 World Champs he lost to Steve Cram due to a very slow early pace. He did NOT want that in the Olympic final. He did best race off of an honest, fast pace.
So for him to win the gold in LA the pace had to be fast. A fast pace would obviously not ensure victory but a slow pace would absolutely rule it out.
So all of his prep and buildup in 1984 was designed with that in mind. Leading the race, pushing the pace. If no one else would do that in the final, he would. Keino had won gold with that strategy.
It didn't work, of course, but that was the reasoning. It's easy for us to sit here, 26 years later and call it a bad move. If Keino had lost you could do the same thing, I guess.
That and by his own admission, Steve ran himself into the ground in '84.
After ending up with the the silver in '83, he said that if he didn't win in LA, it would take an Oly record to beat him. He was correct.
I don't think that Coe was nonchalant in the 1980 800, he was just so crappin his pants scared he couldn't think straight.
Skuj wrote:
I'm still waiting. Tell us about those people, please. If you continue to say nothing about them, or just tell me to look it up, then my point is made.
Are you that dense? Do you not see that it is YOU who is making MY point?
Do your homework.
NobbyH wrote:
Interesting topic, Skuj.
Two I can think of are:
Steve Holman in 1500m in (I think) 1996 Olympic Trial. He was something like 6 seconds ahead of the rest of the field and clearly THE favorite. But the thing about him was that he can't really sprint.
He can't? He won both of his two National championships with his kick.
wellnow wrote:
I don't think that Coe was nonchalant in the 1980 800, he was just so crappin his pants scared he couldn't think straight.
Are you real-wellnow or mod-wellnow? :)
Reality checker wrote:
Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.
Reality i\'m interested in what your point is too, thanks.
Maguro wrote:
Reality checker wrote:Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.
Reality i'm interested in what your point is too, thanks.
Nurmi took the lead quite early and split a very fast 800m. That debunks the stated suggestion that winning from the front in a 1500 has not been done, or whatever.
Some other dude wrote:
Nurmi took the lead quite early and split a very fast 800m. That debunks the stated suggestion that winning from the front in a 1500 has not been done, or whatever.
Except you don't need to go back to 1924 to know that. As mentioned previously on this thread, Keino did it in 1968 Olympic 1500 final against Ryun. It's what that race was famous for.
I know its a female and the competition isn't as tight but Paula Ivan took the lead very early and went on to win in like 3:54. 1988 Olympic 1500.
Holman won an indoor national title but if you're a lot faster than the rest of the field it not hard to win this was. Mary Decker did this her whole career against Americans. I saw Joe Falcon take the lead from the gun and win a U.S. title in 1990 this way. He ran 3:36 and no one else was ready to go that fast.
But in the Olympics or World Champs over the last 30 years I can't think of any others winning by taking the lead at the quarter. El Gerrouj usually had his Morrocan guy give him two laps. In 2000 El Gerrouj got ran down in the homestretch.
In the 1983 world championships, didn't Mary win the 1500 (and the 3000) from the front?
The crucial element in the Ryun/Keino showdown (aside from altitude and Ryun being sick) was Ben Jipcho.
Elementary wrote:
Some other dude wrote:Nurmi took the lead quite early and split a very fast 800m. That debunks the stated suggestion that winning from the front in a 1500 has not been done, or whatever.
Except you don't need to go back to 1924 to know that. As mentioned previously on this thread, Keino did it in 1968 Olympic 1500 final against Ryun. It's what that race was famous for.
no the crucial element was that keino went out fast and ryun wasn't strong enough to catch him.
Avocados Number wrote:
In the 1983 world championships, didn't Mary win the 1500 (and the 3000) from the front?
Taking the lead doesn't always mean pushing the pace fast. Her strategy wasn't so much to establish the gap from the other runners early on.
Maguro wrote:
Reality checker wrote:Do some homework, Skuj, and look up Paavo Nurmi in the 1500 at the 1924 Games. And before you tell me Coe and Cram were not in that race, take a look at who WAS.
Reality i'm interested in what your point is too, thanks.
Me too! Certainly none of the names Skuj pulled up on that list from 1924 would be in anyone's all time top 10 for 1500m. Coe and Cram certainly would be in anyone's top 10, who has any understanding of the history of the event, and probably in quite a lot of people's top 5 (certainly Coe at least)!
While I don't think Scott's reaction was as bad as Skuj thinks it was; as I doubt he'd have medalled that day anyway, and the pace he injected wasn't anything out of the ordinary; he has made a lot of good points on this thread.
Now, had Scott injected a 55 second lap, then I think it would have been a bad tactic for him. Then again, I think we would have seen the first sub 3:30 had he done so.
You're right asdfasfasfds, I just looked at the 88 race on YouTube. Rono takes the lead at more like 700 out, and after that really just at the front of the pack. By contrast Keino took the lead in 68 at about 800 out, but then really gapped the field to hold off Ryun at the end. So I'm still not aware of an Olympic 1500 gold medalist taking the lead during the second lap and holding on to win. Maybe Nurmi. I thought maybe Herb Elliot in 60, but it's hard to tell from the film of the race I saw on YouTube when it was that he took the lead.
wrote:
Rono ran the last 800 or so which is slightly different than the last 1100. If you don't have the fast last 100, then the extended kick is the way to go. From about 800 out you can do the long kick. From 1100 you tend to end up with a medium 400 (57-58) that just strings out the field and makes it easier for the followers. If you wait until 600-700 to go, it puts a lot of pressure on the followers to be in the right spot. If they are boxed or a bit slow reacting they can be the couple tenths back. That being said you could run the 1984 olympics a dozen times and Scott isn't going to win more than 1 or 2 of them. Coe& cram (and ovett if he wasn't sick) were just a fraction better than him on most days.
Captain Track wrote:Peter Rono did it!!