BBC reports Charlie Francis, White, 61, dead from Cancer. He coached Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Ben Johnson.

I have a more nuanced view of Charlie after this thread. Thanks for sharing everyone.

What did Charlie do for a living after 1988? Was coaching a full-time job for him even after the doping or did he earn a living some other way?

Sprint Geezer wrote:

There were so many record-holders around, it was ridiculous--Ben, McKoy, Issajenko, even people like Desai Williams and Angela Bailey who were on the cusp.

I just want to add that I think McKoy is the luckiest athlete who ever existed in our sport. The teflon Man! He got away with so much, and an Olympic gold medal to boot!

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

The sad part, for me, is not that the CF bashers are disrespecting the man upon his death.

The sad part is that CF did what every elite sprint coach does: coach athletes on PEDs. He got caught and paid the price but let us not pretend that anyone else is morally superior or "loves" track more.

Charlie loved track as much as anyone.

I love track as much as anyone and I detest the very idea of cheating. EVERY elite sprint coach? Quite a broad stroke there!

Hahahahahahahaha....sorry for my outburst, oh shit....Mundus Vult Decepi.....I'll have to look up the Latin meaning of this.....does it mean Not Keeping Perspective?

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

ray wrote:

I agree with most of what you have to say, but remind me again how Jesse Owens cheated???? I'm old and I'm starting to forget......

I believe the controversy surrounded his six spiked track shoes made by the German brothers (who later split into Adidas and Puma). They were a prototype and considered ungamely by the German hosts who all wore the standard four-spiked version.

Tracktown, USA wrote:

OP here.

If CF was a black man, be it Afro-American, Jamaican, Indian, Sri Lankan, Guinean, Brazilian, Egyptian, Kenyan, Samoan, Fijian, etc., he'd be tarred, feathered, and dragged naked here on LR the way Tim, Marion, LaShawn, Justin, Barry have been.

The responses thus far only confirm to me that the United States of America is the most racist nation in the recorded history of mankind.

Um, did I miss something, or are all of the responses in support of CF and his methods?

Skuj wrote:

I love track as much as anyone and I detest the very idea of cheating. EVERY elite sprint coach? Quite a broad stroke there!

I won't argue with your love of the sport but I simply have a more nuanced view of "cheating." I believe in a level playing field but the simple fact is that in order to be competitive on elite level, you simply have to PEDs. Perhaps tragically, drugs level the playing field.

If someone can find a way to enfore the drug rules 100%, then I will support it. But, about a decade ago, I came to the conclusion that I hated the cover-up and the lying more than I hated the actual offense. Charlie Francis' honesty and candor were largely responsible for that change.

Strangely, it helped me love track more because it seems fair once again.

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

Strangely, it helped me love track more because it seems fair once again.

So when the testers nail someone like Justin Gatlin or Tim Montgomery or Marion Jones, does that make it unfair since they are being suspended but all the other cheaters aren't?

Do you apply your theory of two wrongs make a right to other aspects of your life?

Missing something wrote:

So when the testers nail someone like Justin Gatlin or Tim Montgomery or Marion Jones, does that make it unfair since they are being suspended but all the other cheaters aren't?

Just to be clear. Neither Tim nor Marion ever failed a drug test.

The issue here--from my perspective--is what is fair competition? What makes an advantage unfair? Was it "fair" that Frank Shorter took payments as an amateur? My point is that no one gains an unfair advantage from taking drugs these days since every elite sprinter is taking something.

Do you apply your theory of two wrongs make a right to other aspects of your life?

Yes, as i suspect you do as well. Everyone drives 5-10 mph over the speed limit on the highway so I do as well.

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

My point is that no one gains an unfair advantage from taking drugs these days since every elite sprinter is taking something.

So is it an unfair DISadvantage when the testers nail someone (ok, so they didn't technically nail Jones or Montgomery)?

Everyone drives 5-10 mph over the speed limit on the highway so I do as well.

But when you get pulled over by the cops, do you pull out your 'everybody else speeds' excuse? What do you think Mr Police Officer would say? Think you'll get out of your ticket?

Tracktown, USA wrote:

The responses thus far only confirm to me that the United States of America is the most racist nation in the recorded history of mankind.

I hate it when people say this. I can only ccnclude that you have never read a history book in your life, or have amnesia. There are dozens of countries/civilizations that I can think of off the top of my head that are WAY more racist than the US. Pull your head out of your ass.

All this justification for cheating

Two wrongs don't make a right

Missing something wrote:

So is it an unfair DISadvantage when the testers nail someone (ok, so they didn't technically nail Jones or Montgomery)?

You are still operating on the assumption that in 100/200m Olympic final or WC final that there are two sets of sprinters: one "clean" group and one "dirty" group. They are all "dirty" which--in my mind--makes the event fair and, to be honest, rather entertaining.

The point is that they are all cheating. Some get caught and some don't. Do you think that Frank Shorter's medals should be taken away because he "cheated" by taking payments for running?

Everyone drives 5-10 mph over the speed limit on the highway so I do as well.

But when you get pulled over by the cops, do you pull out your 'everybody else speeds' excuse? What do you think Mr Police Officer would say? Think you'll get out of your ticket?[/quote]

I will likely never get pulled over because I usually drive with traffic. Even if I get pulled, I will never pay a ticket because I have enough financial and socio-political power to prevent enforcement. This is exactly like drug enforcement. The only people caught are those that are recklessly speeding or lack the resources to prevent enforcement.

You do realize that Carl Lewis--who inherited Ben Johnson's gold medal--failed at least one drug test. Is it fair that he inherited the medal?

Is it really that simple for you?

'Do you think that Frank Shorter's medals should be taken away because he "cheated" by taking payments for running?'

Hardly the same thing is it?

General Mills wrote:

Ben Johnson got caught because he was stupid.

I thought he got trapped by the Carl Lewis camp? Didn't he admit having been on PED's but not on the one he tested positive on?

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

They are all "dirty" which--in my mind--makes the event fair and, to be honest, rather entertaining.

Your mind is ignorant, then, or at least simple. You are probably one of those who thinks it would be grand to do away with all attempts to curb doping, to just let everyone dope as much as they want and may the best responder willing to take the highest risk to personal safety win.

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

The point is that they are all cheating.

But if you know this with absolute certainty, why haven't you shared this knowledge with the administrators and testers so that they can properly enforce the rules?

Or is it really just a 'guess' or a 'hunch' on your part that "they are all cheating"?

Even if I get pulled, I will never pay a ticket because I have enough financial and socio-political power to prevent enforcement.

What the hell does that mean? You are rich enough to pay a bribe? You golf with the chief of police? And you are really trying to make the case for 'fairness'?

Is it really that simple for you?

It is not fair that Lewis, who had a failed drug test, inherited the medal. Are you really whole-heartedly endorsing the two wrongs make a right philosophy? Is that how you view the world and justify the activities of you and others?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Do you think that Frank Shorter's medals should be taken away because he "cheated" by taking payments for running?'

Hardly the same thing is it?

How is it any different?

Shorter cheated. He gained an unfair advantage by being paid to train as a professional while pretending to be an amateur. That is cheating.

doping is divine? wrote:

Your mind is ignorant, then, or at least simple. You are probably one of those who thinks it would be grand to do away with all attempts to curb doping, to just let everyone dope as much as they want and may the best responder willing to take the highest risk to personal safety win.

Actually, I would prefer honest, open use of PEDs to the charade we face currently.

Look, either enforce the rules, hold corporations liable for their athletes, make all bans lifetime and engage in good-old fashioned police work to bust dopers or let them dope.

However, the system we have now is broken--Charlie Francis knew that and was honest about it. I have always respected him for that.

Mundus Vult Decipi wrote:

Even if I get pulled, I will never pay a ticket because I have enough financial and socio-political power to prevent enforcement.

Oh dear! This is the part where I completely stop reading anything else by you.