Claytons 2:08

The last gasp of front-running in a Championships:(Running Times article by Roger Robinson)" 1988, SeoulGreat front-running Olympic 5,000 champions include the metronomic Nurmi (1924) and the surge-and-slow Vladimir Kuts (1956), but my choice is John Ngugi. OK, I may be biased, because as a TV commentator I got to know the courteous Kenyan soldier-farmer at the World Cross Country, which he won five times. But he had less success in the stadium. So he had decided, he told me on the Seoul training track, to run the 5,000 like a cross country race and "not get bogged down in tactics."In only the third lap of the race, he did just that, exploding the tight field with an outrageous 58-second lap. Maybe he imagined it was a grassy downhill slope in Eldoret. It was the indomitable harrier who then held the pace alone for nine laps, never panicking even when they started to chase, and still found 62.2 for the final lap. Unexpected, almost unthinkable, Ngugi's preemptive strike combined genius with iron determination."The closest thing to this since was Geb's second 5000 WR where the pacers dropped before halfway, and he had some hard work to do to break Komen's 12:39. In answer to the question of "whatever happened to...", the answer is that runners like Geb and Bek, with their blistering kicks off of any pace. It's like asking "Why don't they fight battles in rank formation like in Napoleanic times anymore?"

rsb wrote:

Yes, and he was an intrepid front runner, without rabbits... Take the lead, push the pace, and damn the torpedoes...:) ---- not many like that anymore...Lindgren was like that, as was Prefontaine... Where are those type of guys now?

"The closest thing to this since was Geb's second 5000 WR where the pacers dropped before halfway, and he had some hard work to do to break Komen's 12:39."

What??

Geb's second 5000 WR was 12;44, his third broke Komen's 12;39.

When Ron Clarke spoke to us in the early 1980's, he talked about issues related to front-running, as compared to sitting and kicking. He thought too many runners at that time were content to sit and kick and win a race in a slow time. He wasn't talking about Championship races, but races in general. His example was "So you sat on Billy Brown and outkicked him - so what?" Why don't you get out and have a go, he said, really give it a hard go from the front, and see what you're made of. He thought that was how an individual runner could really improve, by pushing his/her own limits to the max. in races, almost regardless of the outcome - I think we're seeing that happening now in USA distance running - runners, with a lot of self-belief, and embracing risk-racing in

their races - I love that!

Avocados Number wrote:

Hooves wrote:

What shoes was clayton wearing?

Vibram Five-Fingers for all of his training.

Post of the year. Hands down.

I chuckle any time I hear Clarke being labelled as a failure. The man earned something very few human beings have achieved a bronze medal. This is a rare accomplishment when put into proper context. He no doubt pushed the envelopeand literally years ahead of his time so to speak.

His PRs 880 1:53.6 1500m 3:44.1 mile: 4:00.2 2000 5:08.7(4:06.96) 3000 7:47.2 (4:11.2) (2 mile 8:19.6 3 mile 12:50.4 (4:16.8) 5000 13:16.6 (4:16.9) 6 miles 26:47 (4:27.8)10K 27:39.4(4:27.2) 10 miles 47:12.8 (4:43) 20K 59:22.8 (4:46)1 hr 12M 1006y 15 miles 1:14:24 (4:57)30K 1:34:35.0 ( 5:05) Marathon 2:20:36.8 ( 5:22.0) marks 2 miles through one hour were world records.

Wow.

This entire thread is one of those 'must save for reference' threads, with all the quotes and stories. Very enjoyable to read everything contained here.

I don't have Noake's The Lore of Running in front of me at this red hot moment in time (away) however, I think he included Clayton's training schedule in the book as a lesson on overtraining. It shows 3 runs per-day, I believe.

The purported 150 to 180 miles per-week in this thread doesn't seem THAT out of line. Also, in this thread there seems to be as much mention of his effort as his quantity.

I wonder if his quality, all the time, was the problem and not so much the quantity as Noakes suggests?

Thoughts?

Loving this old-school thread.

I remember hanging around for autographs by the old press box at Crystal Palace, 1968. Clarky was being interviewed after his attempt on the 2 Mile WR (with hindsight I came to realise what incredible shape he was in that year).

And he smiled at me. Nothing major in that of course, but while having numerous questions fired at him by the media, on the eve of Mexico, this world-famous sportsman paused and noticed a seven year old awe-struck kid.

I had already read 'The Unforgiven Minute', knew that the Ferny St gang ran by eucalyptus trees, that Kip Keino would throw his orange cap down at the bell, and very soon learnt that Olympic laurels do not go to the most deserving.

Truth is I'm still awe-struck,

I would think that Clayton might have stayed healthier had he reduced either distance or intensity. But the question you have to ask is what sort of performances he'd have gotten if he'd done that.

I'd also be curious as to whether he was doing the same sort of work from 1969 until the end of his career.

Opps! forgot about the 12:55. That dude has/had WAY too many records!

stasi wrote:

"The closest thing to this since was Geb's second 5000 WR where the pacers dropped before halfway, and he had some hard work to do to break Komen's 12:39."

What??

Geb's second 5000 WR was 12;44, his third broke Komen's 12;39.

I'm out of information on Clayton, as I never met Derek and have shared what Ron Clarke told us of Clayton. But I do have a lot more good Clarke stories to share, so I am assuming that this thread will be the best place to post them, just to keep the momentum going. Not tonight, I'm tired and need some rest. But I have stories of Clarke and Zatopek, Clarke and Bikila and Hogan, Clarke and Lindgren, Clarke and Percy Cerrutty, Clarke and Herb Elliott, Clarke and Gammoudhi, Clarke and Von Zyl, etc...I'll try and get it again tomorrow.

RonB.

Nice article on Ron Clarke and his training linked below.

http://forums.glenhuntly-athletics.com/ar/t53.htm

The Glenhuntly website is worth a look too. Their roster is a whose who of Australian distance running....Although, I think Clayton ran for Saint Stevens Harriers - SSH?

What about Komen´s 1997 WC victory?

Great thread,thanks for the stories.

rsb,

Ron once told us about he and his wife going to talk to Cerutty and Perc jumps out of the bushes roaring like a tiger. SCares the hell out of them and she refused to even be in the same area as the guy ever again. I don't remember the circumstances or the lead up, but if you have details, I thought it was funny as hell.

ExPatBrit wrote:

I often wondered about Derek Claytons 2:08:33. There's no shortage of debate about whether the course was short, but all the ones I've seen end " well, the roads have been rerouted so we'll never know...." Why not? Surely with Google Maps and a '69 street map of Antwerp I would think it elementary to get a pretty accurate estimate. I'm surprised no-ones done it. Have they?

Great thread, but no one answered the guy's question. Does someone have the correct course map?

Never spoke directly with Clayton. Those that knew him talked of weeks where he hit well over 200 miles. He stopped doing it because he felt it hurt him more than helped him. He didn't like to swap quantity for quality and it hurt the quality of his workouts.

Ron C. told us about the Glenhuntly Track Club as follows.

He said their clubhouse was very primitive, a bit of a run down old building, with 1 shower. And yet they produced many great runners from that club.

At one stage, a German coach came for a visit. He wanted to see where all these great Aussie distance runners trained. They showed him the clubhouse, and he refused to believe it. He thought they were "having him on" in typical Aussie fashion. He left thinking they only met there that one day just to have a joke on the German coach.

Ron didn't have much use for Percy - in fact, he called him just a funny old man, although admitting that he was great for Herb Elliott. Clarke went over to see him once, and Percy started making fun of Clarke's very short stride length (by the way, I think this was one of Clarke's strengths, but that's another story). Percy said look, I am just a little guy and I have a much longer stride than you. So he had Clarke run by, and put some marks down to measure Ron's stride. Then it was Percy's turn. Ron said Percy went way down the track to start his runup, you could hardly see him apparently, he was so far away. Then he sprinted like mad, and then went he got to Clarke's mark, Percy took a long jump...

And then he came back with a big grin on his face, and said "see"! If you had a stride length like mine, you could be a champion.

Ron went over to his father who had accompanied him to the training session, and said he thoughtthe man was a fraud and a trickster and he had no use for that. And that was the end of any possible Cerutty/Clarke relationship. Clarkey told us that he thought that at that time, Cerrutty was somewhere between "running like a hen" and "running like a primitive man with a spear in your hand". :) His thought was that, with the exception of Herb Elliott, athletes were better to stay away from him and the further the better. .

On Elliott, Clarke called him the most phenomenally talented runner he had seen to that point. Apparently he saw Elliott as a Junior, before he had even really started to train, run a 1:52 800 on a grass track, in a casual sort of run. Clarkey said his grandmother could have coached Elliott, and she would have become "the World's greatest distance Coach".

J.R. wrote:

I got a chance to talk with both of them when they visited the west coast at some type of a Runner's World meeting before they sold the magazine. Clayton and Clarke got into a friendly but quite lively exchange about training, which left the normally unabashed Clayton rather speechless, perhaps more a concession to his respect his friend.

However, this aggressiveness of Clarke's greatly impressed me, and I have thought very highly of him ever since. He took considerable time conversing with me, looking directly into my eyes the entire time, and though there was a crowd around, he paid them no attention. Derek Clayton was likewise quite generous, quite an exuberant fireball of a man, constantly full of exerburance, excitement, energy and activity.

I am very envious of you for being able to have had this experience.

What shoes did Clarke train in?