Krayzelburg wrote:
Let's not forget, Kennedy also went 7:30 in the 3K. How many guys have beaten that?
This is an important point. The closest Americans to this mark since Kennedy ran 7:30 has been Lagat's 7:32i and then Goucher and Tegenkamp have run 7:33, 7:34, respectively, but I would rather see the 3000m AR go before the 1500m or 5000m. Once you get guys running 7:30 or below, you know they're capable of 12:50's. Not exactly the case for guys who run 27:00-27:10.
WADA u say? wrote:
Kennedy displays the normal curve of most sub 13:00 runners. That is the PR mark and several marks within 10 seconds of that PR. Not the OTC and Salazar pattern of several years of +13:20 and then bam, 12:56 and 26:59. That is called the WADA suspect numero uno curve.
Yo dunce, when was his best mark set and the ones right around it? What was his PR coming out of college?
Think a little first. Kennedy raced A LOT of 3K's and 5K's in europe and they were nearly all rabbited affairs. That is why he had "several marks within 10 seconds of his PR".
Jerry's guys don't race much, Ritz has been a marathoner and Rupp has been racing all of his 5K's in college. What would you expect??? If any of them were to race even 3/4ths as many races in europe as bob did they'd
A) have faster PRs
B) have more marks near that PR
For Rupp, Jager, Solinsky & Teg (if he can stay healhty) this is likely to happen more in the next 3 years. Ritz maybe not since he's still stating the marathon is his #1 focus.
No doubt the quality of the '96 trials field was not close to '08 for example. But there were some excellent runners in that race. Here's an interesting blurb by Jim Spivey about obtaining the A standard before the Games:http://jimspivey.com/biography/gettingtoatlanta.htmlAgreed with respect to Beijing, still hard to fathom the effort of the front runners. But the heat in Atlanta was a major factor at the trials as well. The chart imbedded herein shows it was 88 at the start of the Men's 5K:http://www.coachr.org/htstress.htmKennedy's fitness helped him to overcome that, while the others languished. It wasn't so hot at the 5K during the games, but it was still a factor I think and in my book that pace was anything but slow.As for the heat, take a look at the temperature at the start of the 1500 Trials final in the link above. A very bad day for Steve Holman indeed.
FanOfTheFan wrote:
It was brutally hot for the 2008 Bejing Men's marathon. I would argue distances longer than 5k would be far more adversely affected by heat/humidity (especially marathon). That didn't stop the times from dipping below 2:06 and 2:07. If we want to look for excuses, I am sure we can find it. I wonder who amongst them even had the 'A' standard at that time (besides Bob).
[quote]sponge wrote:
That's right, and it was brutally hot and humid in the Trial 5000 final. My recollection is that Reina tried to go with BK, and was broken about mid way.
It also was quite warm and humid the night of the Olympic 5K final. Kennedy was fantastic in that race. He didn't have the wheels to stay close to Niyangabo, Bitok, and Baumann over the last 300, but I don't think any U.S. runner today would either. Kennedy had outstanding results for a long period of time, but he also raised the bar for himself and others. Just look at his improvement from the Barcelona final (could not stay close to Bitok and Baumann and well gapped after a mile)to Atlanta.
According to your way of thinking, Jim Ryun was a bum! All his records are gone including his high school records. Let us forget about all the advancements in shoes, nutrition, and running surfaces.
I'm sure some of kennedy's race were rabbited. His 7:30 most likely was which I haven't seen but his 7:31s were him and the other 2 or 3 guys still in the race just taking turns with the lead pushing the pace, mostly kennedy making moves at the lead.
Good One wrote:
Another point to make is that many US runners, back then, deferred to Bob as God. In this case I don't think it was good for US running as a whole.
US running in the 90s was a disgrace. Check out how slow the final of '96 5000m trials was:
1. Bob Kennedy (Nike) 13:46.17
2. Matt Giusto (Foot LockerAC) 13:56.69
3. Ronnie Harris (Reebok Enclave) 13:57.49
4. Jim Spivey (AsicsInternational TC) 13:58.81
5. Steve Plasencia (Asics International TC) 13:59.95
6. Ray Pugsley (Reebok Enclave)14:01.69
7. Mark Coogan (New Balance TC)14:04.63
8. James Menon (U. of Wisconsin) 14:09.52
9. Brian Baker (New Balance TC) 14:11.72;
10. Alan Culpepper (U. of Colorado) 14:14.37;
11. Jason Stewart (US Army) 14:15.63;
12. Pete Julian (Adidas TC) 14:18.82;
13. Dan Held (Nike) 14:30.41;
14. Adam Goucher (U. of Colorado)14:36.20;
15. Reuben Reina (Foot Locker AC) 14:39.31;
16. Tim Gargiulo (Brooks RC) 14:51.37.
Did they take walk breaks or something? Jeebus. No one had balls back then to challenge Bob and so they always deferred to him to take control of a race.
I will give you that US running in the 90's was not as good as it is today, but those guys then weren't sitting around in altitude houses getting coddled by people then. Many of them had other jobs and commitments. You shouldn't be belittling the athletic achievements of others unless you can match those marks. If you say "they were not as good in the 90's as today" no one will argue with you, but to say they were a "disgrace" is insulting to the people running in the 90's.
I'd also like to point out that there's been a few guys deemed "The next BK" over the years but none have matched his consistency. I defer to Malmo's list.
He was easily the most competitive 5k runner we've had since Bob Schul. In 4 or 5 years that may change of course with Ritz and Teg and Solinksy blazing up the track....but single performances are easy to come by. Until someone takes BK's spots on Malmo's list he is still the "American King of 5000m"
Alan
I bet Kennedy might have run faster had he had american around him that could run 13 minutes like these guys have today all fight for AR. Also there are no limits for todays americans. Sub 12:40 is the 5000m record sub 26:20 the 10k. When Kennedy was racing 12:58 was the record he was going for and he had run 13:02 then. So for him 12:58 was the limit or just a little faster. I'm sure Kennedy wasn't thinking man I can run 12:40. Guys today know that sub 12:50 is possible and can go for it. They have something far out there to shoot for and had Kennedy's records also to shoot for while Kennedy was making things up as he ran.
shit wrote:
I bet Kennedy might have run faster had he had american around him that could run 13 minutes like these guys have today all fight for AR. Also there are no limits for todays americans. Sub 12:40 is the 5000m record sub 26:20 the 10k. When Kennedy was racing 12:58 was the record he was going for and he had run 13:02 then. So for him 12:58 was the limit or just a little faster. I'm sure Kennedy wasn't thinking man I can run 12:40. Guys today know that sub 12:50 is possible and can go for it. They have something far out there to shoot for and had Kennedy's records also to shoot for while Kennedy was making things up as he ran.
First, Kennedy trained with guys who ran 12:50 and 3:28, make no mistake he had all the push and then some that the U.S. do today. Off the top of my head his training partners included world record holders in the 1500, steeple and 5K, though some of those records were won and lost quickly prior to the development of the EPO test. Daniel 3:29, 3:46, 4:51, 7:20, 7:58, 12:39 Komen was one, Noah 2:11 (1K)3:26, 3:43, 4:50 (2K) Ngeny was another. He lived in Europe every summer with those world record holders and raced the circuit.
So while in the beginning Kennedy was closer to the world record, I'd argue he had more motivation and confidence to push it to the next level. It's a lot more real and exciting to chase a record that is not far ahead of you than one that is half a lap ahead.
Why do you think U.S. distance running is suddenly exploding. It's because guys like Rupp, Ritz, Teg and now Solinsky have been believing for a long time that 13 or 27 were not unbreakable barriers and that the very top africans were coming back (drugs or lack of?) to more real world times.
And in the end of Kennedy's career those guys were very far ahead, so you can't argue that he was complacent being right at the top.
"He was easily the most competitive 5k runner we've had since Bob Schul. "
correction: Best since Pre.
As far as BK in college....winner XC freshman. As far as other collegiate and high school results:
1992: 2nd in 5000 at Olympic Trials (13:41.22)...12th in 5000 at Olympic Games (13:39.72)...won NCAA XC and USA Champs XC...2nd in NCAA Indoor 3000 (7:59.24)...2nd in 1500 at NCAA (3:39.10)... ranked #2 in U.S. at 5000 by T&FN; #9 U.S. at 1500...bests of 13:28.18 and 7:53.02 (3k), 4:02.22 (mile).
1991: Won NCAA Indoor mile (3:58.11)...3rd in 5000 at USA Outdoors (13:58.01)...12th in 5000 at World Champs (13:54.47)...5th in 1500 heats in 1500 at NCAA Outdoors (3:48.87)...ranked #1 in U.S. at 5000 by T&FN...bests of 13:22.17 and 7:48.02 (3k).
1990: Won NCAA 1500 (3:40.42)...2nd in 5000 at USA Outdoors...3rd in NCAA XC...3rd NCAA Indoor 3000... ranked #4 in U.S. at 5000 by T&FN; #5 in U.S. at 1500...bests of 13:42.80 and 7:58.92 (3k), 4:00.99 (mile).
1989: Won 1500 at USA Juniors...won 1500 and was 6th in 800 at Pan-Am Juniors...5th in NCAA XC...8th in NCAA Indoor 3000...bests of 14:21.40, and 3:43.16 (1500), 4:03.63 (mile).
1988: Won NCAA XC as freshman...5th in 1500 at USA Juniors...bests of 3:47.69 (1500), 4:05.17 (1600) and 8:38.0 (3k).
1987: Won Kinney (now FootLocker) national HS XC...5th in 1500 at USA Juniors...bests of 3:53.29 (1500), 4:10.48 (1600) and 8:27.3 (3k).
1986: 3rd in Kinney (FootLocker) national HS XC.
shmarty pants wrote:
First, Kennedy trained with guys who ran 12:50 and 3:28, make no mistake he had all the push and then some that the U.S. do today. Off the top of my head his training partners included world record holders in the 1500, steeple and 5K, though some of those records were won and lost quickly prior to the development of the EPO test. Daniel 3:29, 3:46, 4:51, 7:20, 7:58, 12:39 Komen was one, Noah 2:11 (1K)3:26, 3:43, 4:50 (2K) Ngeny was another. He lived in Europe every summer with those world record holders and raced the circuit.
So while in the beginning Kennedy was closer to the world record, I'd argue he had more motivation and confidence to push it to the next level. It's a lot more real and exciting to chase a record that is not far ahead of you than one that is half a lap ahead.
Why do you think U.S. distance running is suddenly exploding. It's because guys like Rupp, Ritz, Teg and now Solinsky have been believing for a long time that 13 or 27 were not unbreakable barriers and that the very top africans were coming back (drugs or lack of?) to more real world times.
And in the end of Kennedy's career those guys were very far ahead, so you can't argue that he was complacent being right at the top.
His prime was 95,96,97 probably which was when he was 25,26,27 years old. And at the end of his career the records were far ahead but Kennedy was also Old.
2 Legit 2 Quit wrote:
Good One wrote:Another point to make is that many US runners, back then, deferred to Bob as God. In this case I don't think it was good for US running as a whole.
US running in the 90s was a disgrace. Check out how slow the final of '96 5000m trials was:
1. Bob Kennedy (Nike) 13:46.17
2. Matt Giusto (Foot LockerAC) 13:56.69
3. Ronnie Harris (Reebok Enclave) 13:57.49
4. Jim Spivey (AsicsInternational TC) 13:58.81
5. Steve Plasencia (Asics International TC) 13:59.95
6. Ray Pugsley (Reebok Enclave)14:01.69
7. Mark Coogan (New Balance TC)14:04.63
8. James Menon (U. of Wisconsin) 14:09.52
9. Brian Baker (New Balance TC) 14:11.72;
10. Alan Culpepper (U. of Colorado) 14:14.37;
11. Jason Stewart (US Army) 14:15.63;
12. Pete Julian (Adidas TC) 14:18.82;
13. Dan Held (Nike) 14:30.41;
14. Adam Goucher (U. of Colorado)14:36.20;
15. Reuben Reina (Foot Locker AC) 14:39.31;
16. Tim Gargiulo (Brooks RC) 14:51.37.
Did they take walk breaks or something? Jeebus. No one had balls back then to challenge Bob and so they always deferred to him to take control of a race.
I will give you that US running in the 90's was not as good as it is today, but those guys then weren't sitting around in altitude houses getting coddled by people then. Many of them had other jobs and commitments. You shouldn't be belittling the athletic achievements of others unless you can match those marks. If you say "they were not as good in the 90's as today" no one will argue with you, but to say they were a "disgrace" is insulting to the people running in the 90's.
Oh, please. Kennedy was great, there's no denying that, but that race looks like an NCAA qualifying heat today. The '90s sucked and everyone knows it. Turns out, when it comes to training, less isn't more, more is more.
Don't forget about Marty Liquori(missed the WR by 2 seconds, ranked number 2 in the World to Yifter) and Sydney Maree (missed the world record by one second, ranked number 2 to Aouita, 5th in 88 Olympic 5000.)
Except that Lagat, the best US 5000m runner today, got to <13 on 65 miles/week. According to you that would be impossible. Is any US distance runner really running a much better 5000m than Moorcroft ran solo some 25 years ago on an annual average of 75 quality miles/week? No.
Don't forget Ritz had to cut back his volume to realize he had been chronically fatigued from overtraining and way way under developed on the speed side -- that's how he finally broke through.
The biggest difference between now and the 90's is the that excellent 1500m runners w/ <50 400m speed (like Geb and Bekele) now routinely show up for 5000m and 10000m races. Some of them run high volume, some don't.
shit wrote:Also there are no limits for todays americans. Sub 12:40 is the 5000m record sub 26:20 the 10k. When Kennedy was racing 12:58 was the record he was going for and he had run 13:02 then. So for him 12:58 was the limit or just a little faster. I'm sure Kennedy wasn't thinking man I can run 12:40. Guys today know that sub 12:50 is possible and can go for it. They have something far out there to shoot for and had Kennedy's records also to shoot for while Kennedy was making things up as he ran.
When Kennedy was running 6 of the top 8 5000s were recorded. Of the 20 sub 12:50s 11 of them by 5 athletes were done during the Kennedy years.
That leaves only 2 of the top 8 5000s were done since, and we know who did those. Since the days of Kennedy 5 athletes put up 9 of the 20 sub 12:50s.
I don't think there are too many guys today thinking they can realistically break 12:40 or even 12:50. Those are goals for a rarefied few.
In 1987 the world record was 12:58 and it was at 13:00 in 1982, so you could argue by some peoples logic on here that Kennedy should have been much faster than that in his prime years later (i'm not saying that).
However the record was 12:44 in 1995, and 12:39 by 1997, the years you list as his prime. Incidentally Komen also ran 12:45 in 1996.
Best year performance
[edit] Men's seasons best (outdoor track)
YEAR TIME ATHLETE PLACE
1960 13:38.1 Pyotr Bolotnikov (URS) Kiev
1961 13:38.2 Murray Halberg (NZL) Stockholm
1962 13:38.4 Murray Halberg (NZL) Auckland
1963 13:38.6 Pyotr Bolotnikov (URS) Zürich
1964 13:38.0 Bob Schul (USA) Compton
1965 13:24.2 Kipchoge Keino (KEN) Auckland
1966 13:16.6 Ron Clarke (AUS) Stockholm
1967 13:18.8 Ron Clarke (AUS) Stockholm
1968 13:27.66 Ron Clarke (AUS) London
1969 13:29.0 Dick Taylor (GBR) London
1970 13:22.8 Ian Stewart (GBR) Edinburgh
1971 13:22.2 Dave Bedford (GBR) Edinburgh
1972 13:13.0 Emiel Puttemans (BEL) Brussels
1973 13:14.51 Emiel Puttemans (BEL) Stockholm
1974 13:14.4 Ben Jipcho (KEN) Christchurch
1975 13:18.6 Emiel Puttemans (BEL) Papendal
1976 13:13.10 Dick Quax (NZL) Stockholm
1977 13:12.86 Dick Quax (NZL) Stockholm
1978 13:08.4 Henry Rono (KEN) Berkeley
1979 13:12.29 Suleiman Nyambui (TAN) Stockholm
1980 13:16.38 Miruts Yifter (ETH) Bratislava
1981 13:06.20 Henry Rono (KEN) Knarvik
1982 13:00.41 David Moorcroft (GBR) Oslo
1983 13:08.54 Fernando Mamede (POR) Tokyo
1984 13:04.78 Saïd Aouita (MAR) Florence
1985 13:00.40 Saïd Aouita (MAR) Oslo
1986 13:00.86 Saïd Aouita (MAR) La Coruña
1987 12:58.39 Saïd Aouita (MAR) Rome
1988 13:11.70 John Ngugi (KEN) Seoul
1989 13:04.24 Yobes Ondieki (KEN) Oslo
1990 13:05.59 Salvatore Antibo (ITA) Bologna
1991 13:01.82 Yobes Ondieki (KEN) Zürich
1992 13:00.93 Moses Kiptanui (KEN) Brussels
1993 13:02.75 Ismael Kirui (KEN) Stuttgart
1994 12:56.96 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) Hengelo
1995 12:44.39 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) Zürich
1996 12:45.09 Daniel Komen (KEN) Zürich
1997 12:39.74 Daniel Komen (KEN) Brussels
1998 12:39.36 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) Helsinki
1999 12:49.64 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) Zürich
2000 12:49.28 Brahim Lahlafi (MAR) Brussels
2001 12:56.72 Richard Limo (KEN) Zürich
2002 12:55.85 Salah Hissou (MAR) Rome
2003 12:48.81 Stephen Cherono (KEN) Ostrava
2004 12:37.35 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Hengelo
2005 12:40.18 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Paris
2006 12:48.09 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Brussels
2007 12:49.53 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Zaragoza
2008 12:50.18 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Zürich
2009 12:52.32 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) Zürich
Interesting to note that for 15 years between 1978-1993 the top times annually ranged from 13:00 - 13:08 with the one year at 12:58 and then:
In two years it drops to 12:56 to 12:44.
At this point hoards of guys are breaking 13:00 and fastest marks land under 12:50 every year until 2001 when the fastest mark is 12:56. Strangely this is 7 seconds slower than the fastest mark of an Olympic year and coincidentally when it was widely announced that an EPO test had been derived and the rumors of rampant EPO use were from the mid to late 90's.
Hmmmm.
In 2003 Cherono finally buries 13:00 with 12:48 and Bekele buries it on a regular basis thereafter with a similar pattern of more following and then another slow down over the past 3 years. New drug developed and as typical after a lag time new test?
Time to wake up. People have been running on or around 13:00 for over 30 years but only during a few periods from a few camps have people buried 13 minutes.
dsrunner has the day off wrote:
Except that Lagat, the best US 5000m runner today, got to <13 on 65 miles/week. According to you that would be impossible. Is any US distance runner really running a much better 5000m than Moorcroft ran solo some 25 years ago on an annual average of 75 quality miles/week? No.
Don't forget Ritz had to cut back his volume to realize he had been chronically fatigued from overtraining and way way under developed on the speed side -- that's how he finally broke through.
The biggest difference between now and the 90's is the that excellent 1500m runners w/ <50 400m speed (like Geb and Bekele) now routinely show up for 5000m and 10000m races. Some of them run high volume, some don't.
You mean like Ritz and Rupp? Yep, real speedsters there. I'm not so convinced Solinsky, Tegenkamp, or any other American 5k/10k guy not named Lagat (who has run 3:26; he should be well under 13) is capable of sub-50 for 400 either.
todays huck finn wrote:
You mean like Ritz and Rupp? Yep, real speedsters there. I'm not so convinced Solinsky, Tegenkamp, or any other American 5k/10k guy not named Lagat (who has run 3:26; he should be well under 13) is capable of sub-50 for 400 either.
Actually I'd be surprised if Rupp couldn't, he ran 1:49 with very little experience running 800's, in fact it was his second ever I believe.
E. Africans clean since nice wrote:
Time to wake up. People have been running on or around 13:00 for over 30 years but only during a few periods from a few camps have people buried 13 minutes.
Time to wake up. Americans have been running around 13:20 for over 30 years but, excluding Kennedy, only during the last year and only from Oregon based runners have American's buried 13 minutes and 27 minutes. And all 3 dudes were pretty mature average runners until last year. Hmmmm.