Thanks for the google doc! I understand what he is getting at better now, more complex but like what he says. I was a slower local competitive guy back in the day that liked to keep it simple. Could see how this could help the better runner stuck on a plateau. A lot of ways to skin a cat. ;)
Yes, a little slower but JDs , MP has always been more in line with people putting a lot of volume in and training for one, not just a 10k runner that might be on lower volume.
Thanks for bumping and putting this info together. I’ve copied your schedule and a link to this thread, I think I will experiment with this as a 10 week base this summer.
I’m glad I clicked on this thread. Pretty interesting stuff to read.
I was looking at my own training plan for this winter (starting my first workout next week) and found things very similar. Lots of threshold reps, marathon tempos, and a brisk long run.
I’ve also written in my schedule some track intervals. Mostly 200s at around 10k-5k pace. I wonder if this is the “speed work” that Canova describes.
I was actually thinking about extending these workouts up to 400m, I don’t think it would be too much to early in the base phase, something like 10x400 from 10>5k pace with generous rest. But feel free to chime in
I also had already planned out two week schedules, so it would look like this.
M-easy
T-threshold repeats (1600s usually)
W-medium long run, moderate
T-easy
F- marathon paced tempo
S-easy
S-long run
M-easy
T- threshold repeats (1600s and 3200 mix)
W-medium long run, quicker than an easy run
T-easy
F- 10>5k session
S-easy
S-long run
Thanks, Working Stiff. This thread is delightful and your contribution is generous. Much appreciated.
Following buildup for young long distance runners is more than 30 years old:
Work up to before going specific:
Mo recovery and gym
Tu 50 min aerobic zone 3
We 1:15 h aerobic zone 2
Th 1:40 aerobic zone 1
Fr 50 min aerobic zone 3
Sa long uphills with long warm up and cool down runs
Su 2 h starting in zone1 for warmup, change to zone 2 after few km and last 10 km in zone 3, total time rules
Working Stiff wrote:
marke wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't really understand what this means?
Bumping this thread to provide a simplified summary of what Canova is saying here:
1. Start by running mostly easy with a couple runs per week @5K Race Pace X 1.3 starting at 40 minutes at that pace until you get to 60 minutes continuously
2. After you get to 60 minutes at that pace 2 times per week:
- Start extending the length of one of the runs until you get to 90 minutes at that pace
- For the other run, add a fast finish section where you get up to 5K Race Pace X 1.2 starting at 20 minutes until you get up to 60 minutes at that pace
- Add strength training and/or hill sprints a couple times per week on the other days
3. Now you are running faster 2 times per week; A 90 minute run at 1.3 X 5K RP and a 60 minute run at 1.2 X 5K RP. Along with that, you have some strength happening and/or hill sprints. Now we add more
- 90-minute run stays the same for 5K/Mile Runners with a faster finish. It is extended to 2 hours for longer distance runners
- 60 minute faster run is now what Canova calls a "Fundamental Tempo". This varies depending on your goal race distance but is essentially a long faster run at a pace that is 2-10% slower than Daniels' MP. There is more info on those in other posts
- A 3rd workout is added to the week. What Canova describes looks like Threshold Reps either in the form of a fartlek or track rep session. He recommends 40 or so minutes of work at pace w/ medium rest
- For the days between workouts he recommends Strength work and/or Hill Sprints as before but also says there should also be a fairly long easy run. He says 18-25K minimum but translated to slower runners might mean like 60-70 minutes
Speed should not start until this is comfortable. And when speed is added workout rotation must change to a 2-week cycle so that everything can fit.
I've also created a spreadsheet that simplifies it further:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UVcCnPCqLxRYEt1dMItq_PQvugR5RXPNx3RV5XzAyXo/edit?usp=sharingHe gives no timeline but from his other posts, we can guess that the period should last no less than 2 months but longer if the athlete needs more time to adapt to the stress.
Working stiff. I took your spreadsheet and expanded into a training plan targeting a HM in April. Curious as to what you think? No worries if you don’t have time to take a look. This is for a hobby jogger hoping to run under 73 minutes and then transition into a marathon cycle for a fall marathon.
5k PR was set in November (15:45) on the track in a solo TT.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WzXBwJx75Bpa2QHrA-t-a2m5syrnODDHyNlh-V5mEYY/editZeroS20 wrote:
This is what Verheul used but most athletes who followed this approach failed in long distances. For example, Klass Lok 10K PB was 28.xx but his marathon PB was 2:08.
Works for me though
Easy interval method that is ;-)
highhoppingworm wrote:
Working stiff. I took your spreadsheet and expanded into a training plan targeting a HM in April. Curious as to what you think? No worries if you don’t have time to take a look. This is for a hobby jogger hoping to run under 73 minutes and then transition into a marathon cycle for a fall marathon.
5k PR was set in November (15:45) on the track in a solo TT.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WzXBwJx75Bpa2QHrA-t-a2m5syrnODDHyNlh-V5mEYY/edit
That looks pretty good to me honestly.
I might add a few speedier sessions (Faster than 5K pace) in the last few cycles. You could do it in a few ways:
1. Replace some strength sessions with something quick like 600 breakdowns or 400's cutting down from 3K to Mile Pace
2. Turn some of the "Strides" days into mild speed sessions (10 x 200 to 8 x 300 w/ plenty of rest)
3. Turn down the total volume of some of the strength sessions (either the long fundamental tempo stuff or the threshold reps) and add speed there.
Example 1: 4-5mi Fundamental Tempo + 200's or 300's
Example 2: 4 x 200 + Threshold Reps + 4 x 200
From a Canova perspective, it's good to evolve those strides sessions into something more substantial so you're approaching your race goal equally from both sides. You've got the strength side covered but your speed side starts with strides for a long time then goes straight into 2 pretty tough 5K specific workouts. I think the above examples might provide a better bridge to that. Depending on the kind of runner you are, you could need more or less of that speed stuff to get you where you want to be for that 6 x 1K session. There are definitely people who can run very well with none of it.
I like the amount of rest you have scheduled between your tougher workouts and I think in general you have a very good grasp on what you're doing. Don't let me talk you out of something if you truly believe in it. That's most of the battle anyway.
Also, I might use your schedule format for some things in the future. I like it
Good Luck!
Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. The speed isn’t the problem (although I am getting older). I come from a sprinting/jumping background hence the name. If anything the lack of any real speed work might force me to actually run 5k pace and not overcook things.
Working Stiff wrote:
marke wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't really understand what this means?
Bumping this thread to provide a simplified summary of what Canova is saying here:
1. Start by running mostly easy with a couple runs per week @5K Race Pace X 1.3 starting at 40 minutes at that pace until you get to 60 minutes continuously
2. After you get to 60 minutes at that pace 2 times per week:
- Start extending the length of one of the runs until you get to 90 minutes at that pace
- For the other run, add a fast finish section where you get up to 5K Race Pace X 1.2 starting at 20 minutes until you get up to 60 minutes at that pace
- Add strength training and/or hill sprints a couple times per week on the other days
3. Now you are running faster 2 times per week; A 90 minute run at 1.3 X 5K RP and a 60 minute run at 1.2 X 5K RP. Along with that, you have some strength happening and/or hill sprints. Now we add more
- 90-minute run stays the same for 5K/Mile Runners with a faster finish. It is extended to 2 hours for longer distance runners
- 60 minute faster run is now what Canova calls a "Fundamental Tempo". This varies depending on your goal race distance but is essentially a long faster run at a pace that is 2-10% slower than Daniels' MP. There is more info on those in other posts
- A 3rd workout is added to the week. What Canova describes looks like Threshold Reps either in the form of a fartlek or track rep session. He recommends 40 or so minutes of work at pace w/ medium rest
- For the days between workouts he recommends Strength work and/or Hill Sprints as before but also says there should also be a fairly long easy run. He says 18-25K minimum but translated to slower runners might mean like 60-70 minutes
Speed should not start until this is comfortable. And when speed is added workout rotation must change to a 2-week cycle so that everything can fit.
I've also created a spreadsheet that simplifies it further:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UVcCnPCqLxRYEt1dMItq_PQvugR5RXPNx3RV5XzAyXo/edit?usp=sharingHe gives no timeline but from his other posts, we can guess that the period should last no less than 2 months but longer if the athlete needs more time to adapt to the stress.
Can you give some examples on what the fundamental tempo should look like? Also, once you go to LT reps/fartlek later in the plan do you keep weekly hill sprints?