FM and Saratoga Training

distance please wrote:

I found this post to be kind of creepy. It's just running. Left foot, right foot. There's no reason why your experiences with your coaches should be "emotionally complex" and have impacted your life so much that you cannot translate them through a keyboard. Either you write with too much hyperbole or you and your coaches need some perspective.

It's evident that the coaches are very involved the personal as well as the athletic development of these kids. But I'm not sure how that's any more creepy than getting guidance from a teacher, scout leader, religious leader, music or art teacher, or any other type of mentor? Just because running isn't complex doesn't mean there isn't reason to address the complexities of life when you're in a position of influence.

thats right. and remember, these are KIDS. it doesnt matter how fast they are, at the end of the day they are a bunch of teenagers gunning for a championship and an unforgettable experience.

so jr hs...you have made the valiant choice to develop these kids for long term??? really how good is your team exactly and look at yourself. you are insulting teenagers just like the ones i assume you coach. how good of a coach are you?

Whats the training like aye?

jeez people wrote:

thats right. and remember, these are KIDS. it doesnt matter how fast they are, at the end of the day they are a bunch of teenagers gunning for a championship and an unforgettable experience.

so jr hs...you have made the valiant choice to develop these kids for long term??? really how good is your team exactly and look at yourself. you are insulting teenagers just like the ones i assume you coach. how good of a coach are you?

Relax dude! Everybody makes choices, they don't have to agree with everyone else's.

I don't think anybody insulted any kids here.

SAUGUS for 1st place!!!!!!!! Or second...

I'm a guy but have talked to a former FM girl runner briefly over the summer. It was a friend-of-a-friend situation otherwise I would have asked what type of schedule they usually have throughout the season. I must say, this runner didn't seem nearly as enthused as the posters, i don't know if she was very fast or not though. But i was told the girls run up in the 70s(and have heard rumors of even higher), that it is too much too soon for some of the runners, that they meet 6-7 days a week through-out the summer (it was more like "we meet like everyday" so i don't know exactly what that means...), and practices are extremely long during the school year ("our coaches talk forever its annoying after a while").

It's definitely controlling but it can't be proven to be a positive or negative thing. Personally, my HS coach (team sucked so doesn't mean much) used to talk about diet, sleep, social habits so i dont think trying to control that is unusual...

Obviously the athletes from FM that have come on here believe it to be wholly positive, but i bet its a very negative thing for others.

Any chance we can get some actual training methods or philosophy from the athletes who were on here defending their coaches?

They are not allowed to speak about their training.

And who says their coaches are not controlling?

Bump for any specific information about the Fayetteville-Manlius training other than the articles that are already online.

drunkenhyena wrote:

Bump for any specific information about the Fayetteville-Manlius training other than the articles that are already online.

They are quick to defend, but not so quick to share? Seems odd? maybe they know it is a bit above what what be considered appropriate, or they don't want anyone else to know because it really is all about winning in HS?

it's not entirely appropriate for FM kids to disclose their detailed training schedules on public internet forums w/o the permission of their coach. I have a teammate who is a former FM varsity runner (hasn't done much in college due to injury) I've heard some humorous stories about the over-the-top intensity of the program (doing a long run where they were insructed to run as long as possible until they couldn't take another step) or being blaimed and scolded for getting sick (for not practicing good hygiene etc) but overall the team is very close and its true that a lot of the athletes come back after college to get coached by their FM coach again (or quit their college program, preferring to continue being coached by HS coach)

Sadly, we've seen this circumstance before. A team becomes successful. Their kids run well, dominating their opposition. Suddenly, they have "The Secret". You know "The Secret": it's that special, magic formula of coaching and workouts - that only their team has - that makes the team "champions of the world". And if they let that magic formula get out, other people might catch up - and they won't be dominant any more. They won't be special.

I'm reminded of the story Bill Bowerman told about Mihaly Igloi, the great Hungarian coach. Igloi was quite secretive when he first came to the United States in the late 50's. Discussing training was out of the question-these were the "secret" workouts that produced great runners like Iharos, Rozsaolvlgi, Tabori, and later Bob Schul and Jim Beatty. So the North Carolina coach, Dale Ranson, went up in a bell tower with a pair of binoculars and wrote down what Igloi's athletes ran. He passed those workouts along to other coaches. The secret was out. And truth was that many people were already doing similar workouts. One day, some of Fayetteville's workouts will show up on line, much like Saratoga's already have. And like Igloi, we'll find it's pretty similar to what most people are doing already.

My observation of successful teams is that they pretty much do the same kinds of workouts. It may be packaged differently, but they have those basics down. Combine those basics with a winning year in the genetic lottery, and you rise to the top. Fayetteville is the current example. It's unfortunate they don't discuss what they do; It would be interesting to compare their approach to say Saugus, or Saratoga. That kind of conversation only advances the sport, but it's their coaches prerogative to hold on to what they do. It's their intellectual property. But discussing "The Secret" doesn't diminish a program. It makes you realize that their success is a tribute to work and motivation of the individual coaches and athletes. Some of the very finest and most successful coaches I know will gladly tell you what they are doing in workouts: they are the ones that truly understand it's the kids that make the difference.

But, some coaches think they are the celebrities, always make sure they are in the pictures and get the accolades and will have their kids do whatever it takes so they (coaches) can win.

I think many of the critics of the FM-Toga programs are completely off base. Remember that these programs are lauded for being GREAT TEAMS. Most of the time, these great teams are not led by the national champion. These teams are comprised of 7 very good-to-great athletes but not necessarily THE best. It would stand to reason then that once they went off to college they would find moderate-to-ok success. It would be different if FM girls consisted of 7 sub 10:20 3200m runners who were the best individuals in the country, but that's now what makes them great. So because a lot of BIG NAMES from these programs aren't winning NCAA titles isn't a reason to say that FM-Toga programs are "nuts" or burning out their athletes. You're seeing smoke where there is no fire.

FM-Toga are great programs, that is a group of kids who combined are better than most every other program in the country. I think it's okay if not every athlete from their team goes on to only moderate collegiate success. Nothing about their background should make you think that the #7 FM girl should be a national champion her senior year of college.

I would also like to note that as a coach who built a team with similar characteristics to the FM program, it is difficult when members of your HS team go off to college and don't find the same type of environment as their HS team. As much as you can prepare your athlete for the change, it is still tough on them because they essentially grew up with that "family". And sometimes it just doesn't work in college. But when it does, that athlete will find success (either through performance or just growth as a person).

I agree with what you said about "the secret" but I don't think it quite applies in the FM case. At least from what i've heard, there is A LOT of above and beyond behavior by the coaches that other high school teams simply do not do.

EX. picking up an athlete from the airport to ensure they get their long run in that weekend

On one hand, I think it can be seen as "controlling" from someone outside our sport, but to be successful in running there are a lot of life aspects besides just the "secret" workouts. On the other hand, hour-long talks at practice everyday and extensive involvement outside of practice might overwhelm typical HS runners. It doesn't surprise me that their numbers of kids out for the team is much smaller than you'd expect from such a successful program. Most kids can't dedicate themselves to the sport and coaches on the same level that the coaches dedicate theirs to the runners.

The Kranicks at Saratoga used to order specific food for their runners at championship meets, or make sure that the runners were at home Saturday so they could get sleep for the next day's run. I think Nicole Blood talked about it in an interview... not sure if they still do, as this was when Blood was still in HS.

Agreed. Leave the girls alone. Leave all runners who love to run for the persona enjoyment, not YOUR enjoyment of criticism and constant analysis alone. What are you people, a bunch of stalkers?! You keep up with these girls because you are obsessed fans and then turn to these boards to bash them if they don't live up to your expectations as if you are betting money on them. They are not race horses, greyhounds, or pro-athletes for that matter. All I have to say is be inspired they once had the drive to be great and lived up to it. Most of these girl got at least a full or partial scholarship to college. Earning that is very tough. If they moved on and found more to life than running, good for them. THey probably do not wish to compete anymore because people like you have ruined it for them. Have a nice day.

These programs clearly don't "burn-out" runners. Nicole Blood has had a great running career at Oregon.