Is the Oregon dynasty done already?

Teddy Graham wrote:

Why doesn't Portland save more of its limited (the poster says six) scholarships for local and/or American kids? No, they spend them on Kenyans, and then come here and thump their chests because these 25 year old Kenyans beat the 18-22 year old American Oregon team. Does anyone see the irony here?

I see the irony, but it's because you don't really know what you're talking about.

Portland reputaion has been BUILT not only on "Americans," but NORTHWEST guys! For example, over the last five years (not including this year), there have only been something like 5 guys on the A team who weren't from the NW. Yes at regionals, only three were, but at Pre-nats/Dillenger, 4 were. But this is the result of the high profile Portland is recieving beacuse of it's success - as it continues to do well, more kids from around the country will recognize the program's strength, will want to come, and Portland can ease it's dependence on local recruiting.

And furthermore, saying Portland spends their money on Kenyans is RIDICULOUS! They have had only three "Kenyans," in the history of the program. Osoro went to high school in America and approached Portland (as opposed to being directly recruited) and Kipchumba came to Portland because Wisley Kiptarus, who was already on the team, was a friend of his back in Kenya.

And what proportion of the gold medalist since Pre's day are in the distances? DT, 800, but nothing close above 800.

Teddy Graham wrote:

Why doesn't Portland save more of its limited (the poster says six) scholarships for local and/or American kids? No, they spend them on Kenyans, and then come here and thump their chests because these 25 year old Kenyans beat the 18-22 year old American Oregon team. Does anyone see the irony here?

Look at the nationals results from last year. Not only was it 6 Americans and 1 Kenyan, it was 6 WASHINGTON HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES and a Kenyan.

How would Portland have done today without their "only three Kenyans"?

Nebraska has missing Mikel Thomas and Peter Falcon. Besides, how can you possibly say they Nebraska xc is "as bad" as Creighton when they got 8th in the Midwest and Creighton got last? (sorry for getting off topic)

The Betrayed wrote:

How would Portland have done today without their "only three Kenyans"?

Well, considering there were only TWO in the race, and one of which being from North Dakota, still alright. And seriously, why would it matter?

Not quite... wrote:

That's actually not what he said. What he said was, it is perfectly plausible to expect 1500/mile types to be able to run serviceable in cross country. Or perhaps more specifically, it is perfectly reasonable to expect a 3:36/13:4x guy (centro) and a sub 4/13:5x guy (Acosta) to at least be all-region in XC. This is not the same as a saying that a middle distance runner should beat a long distance runner in xc if each is of similar ability level in their specialty. Look at the track credentials of the Oregon runners and then look at the track credentials of the Stanford/Portland runners, there is a pretty significant advantage to Oregon. That doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage in xc but at the very least they shouldn't be losing by almost 100 points.

Not how I read the post, the original guy seemed to think the fastest milers should be winning 10k XC, which in reality, almost never happens.

Acosta redshirted track due to lingering injuries, Centro pulled out of NCAA outdoor due to injury. Both were considered XC/3200m talents in highschool, in college both turned out to be 1500m talents, both are questionable in regards to health and fitness base.

Not quite... wrote:

Look at the track credentials of the Oregon runners and then look at the track credentials of the Stanford/Portland runners, there is a pretty significant advantage to Oregon. That doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage in xc but at the very least they shouldn't be losing by almost 100 points.

Stanford vs Oregon track credentials:

5000m: Derrick: 3rd, 5000m, 13:29m AJR. Acosta: 13:5x, redshirt due to injury.

1500m: Heath, 2nd at NCAAs. Centro (injured in semi, DNC).

Stanford should be wiping the floor with Oregon based on their track results.

former d1er wrote:

The original poster talked about how he thought they would become like the Arkansas teams. People then started to argue that Oregon cares about track more than cross. Don't forget that during Arkansas run they had extremely good track teams as well as cross teams. They were able to win the triple crown multiple times. So don't tell me that a school can't be good at both and use that as an excuse for Oregon.

Uh, hadn't the complete swipe, the XC/Indoor/Outdoor triple crown in one school year, only been done like 2 or 3 times in all college history? Arkansas may have been one or even two of those, but it was no common thing, like you imply.

nnbsgffds wrote:

Stanford vs Oregon track credentials:

5000m: Derrick: 3rd, 5000m, 13:29m AJR. Acosta: 13:5x, redshirt due to injury.

1500m: Heath, 2nd at NCAAs. Centro (injured in semi, DNC).

.

Wrong Heath. That was older brother Heath in the 1500 finals last year, this is younger brother Heath, who is more of a 5000 talent than miler I believe.

Portland has no less than five foreigners on their roster right now. Look it up. Those are full rides. Dunbar is from Alaska, so he's pretty much un-American, too. I'm kidding on that. That makes six full rides right there. I guess everyone else on that 90 man roster is a walk-on. Trust me folks, UP is loaded to the max on scholarships. Don't kid yourself. They spend more money on distances than any other program in the country, and they are sponsored by Nike, so have at 'em.

Of course, I say "Go Pilots!" You can hate the game, but don't hate the playa'.

The Betrayed wrote:

How would Portland have done today without their "only three Kenyans"?

5 #528 Tommy Betterbed Portland 4:56.6 30:42.91 5

8 #540 Joash Osoro Portland 4:58.5 30:54.68 8

12 #531 Trevor Dunbar Portland 4:59.4 31:00.28 11

22 #537 Alfred Kipchumba Portland 5:02.3 31:18.28 21

40 #534 Shane Geiger Portland 5:07.7 31:51.78 39

42 #539 Lars Erik Malde Portland 5:08.1 31:53.97 41

76 #527 Jared Bassett Portland 5:14.9 32:36.45 75

OK genius, point out to me the three Kenyans. And keep in mind Joash Osoro went through Middle school and High School in North Dakota, didn't run before he came to the US.

nnbsgffds wrote:

Not quite... wrote:

Look at the track credentials of the Oregon runners and then look at the track credentials of the Stanford/Portland runners, there is a pretty significant advantage to Oregon. That doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage in xc but at the very least they shouldn't be losing by almost 100 points.

Stanford vs Oregon track credentials:

5000m: Derrick: 3rd, 5000m, 13:29m AJR. Acosta: 13:5x, redshirt due to injury.

1500m: Heath, 2nd at NCAAs. Centro (injured in semi, DNC).

Stanford should be wiping the floor with Oregon based on their track results.

Perhaps it would be better to compare Derrick to Puskedra who ran 28:30 and finished 2 places behind him in the indoor 5k. You also have the wrong Heath. That is Garrett who has graduated. The Heath running now is Elliott. His track credentials are 3:43, 7:53, 13:42. Compare to 3:36, 7:55, 13:49 for Centrowitz, and though Heath gets the advantage at the longer distance, its not by much (Centrowitz also beat Heath in high school xc and ran 6 seconds faster in the 2 mile). But look at the credentials of the 3-7 guys:

Stanford:

Marpole-Bird: 3:45/4flat

Riley: 14:03/28:46- track all-american

Gregg: 14:07/29:45

Unterriener: couldn't find results from freshman year, did not have regional qualifier.

Johnson: 9:05 steeple

Oregon:

Da. Mercado: 14:03/28:53- xc all-american

Di. Mercado: 13:57/28:48- xc all-american

McNamara: 3:41/3:57/14:09

Acosta: 3:40/3:57/7:57/13:50- track all-american

Klotz: 13:58/29:50 (at pac-10's so I would assume a tactical race)- xc all-american

Looking at the list Oregon has at least 4 guys (Klotz, the Mercados, and Puskedra) who are xc/long distance specialists, and by and large their prs are better than their Stanford counterparts. I'm just saying that you should not be seeing blowouts with these kind of credentials.

Oregon grossly underperformed at the regionals, there is no other way to say it. Stanford is a better cross country team, but not 75 points better, and there is no way that the Portland team that lined up should have beaten the Oregon team. Oregon had 5 guys out there that have no excuse for not finishing in the top 20, and three that should be in the top 10 at this meet. (by the way, the Smith coached ducks were performing better than this years ducks when people started attacking them up in Portland)

Normally, Vin coached sub 4 guys who are 1500 specialists (Sage, Robison) finish top Ten at NCAA cross, especially if they have sub 14 credentials. These performances are unacceptable, Vin knows this, and his guys deserve to get yelled at.

They deserve to be yelled at, and probably will continue to be yelled at for about another week. They also need to perform better at Nationals, and I believe they will.

This has been an interesting thread. In summary:

1. Arkansas was an aberration and certainly very few of us expect to see a dynasty of that magnitude again.

2. Stanford has excellent cross country talent, probably the best in the country and they should have beaten Oregon.

3. Portland ran well, but let's be honest, they focus purely on distance runners, whereas most of the major t&f programs try to be balanced with their scholarships. Oh, and yes Portland is loaded with foreign runners and would not have been in the top 10 in region without them.

4. Several of Oregon's runners ran very poorly on Saturday, we should expect a better performance from them at NC's.

5. Martin Smith's teams did well indeed, especially considering the stabbings in the back that he took from Nike. Vin better get his act together or the Nike folks will betray him as well.

6. Anyone who thinks Oregon is going away anytime soon, is nothing but a fool.

End of thread.

Teddy Graham wrote:

3. Oh, and yes Portland is loaded with foreign runners and would not have been in the top 10 in region without them.

Loaded is a gross overstatement. Look at their varsity come nationals. My bet is no more than 2 "foreigners" (Osoro went to high school here since he was 13...same scenario as Meb. Would you consider him "foreign"?).

Remember, they held out their 5 and 6 (Frerker and Cosby, both NW locals).

poksjhsg wrote:

former d1er wrote:

The original poster talked about how he thought they would become like the Arkansas teams. People then started to argue that Oregon cares about track more than cross. Don't forget that during Arkansas run they had extremely good track teams as well as cross teams. They were able to win the triple crown multiple times. So don't tell me that a school can't be good at both and use that as an excuse for Oregon.

Uh, hadn't the complete swipe, the XC/Indoor/Outdoor triple crown in one school year, only been done like 2 or 3 times in all college history? Arkansas may have been one or even two of those, but it was no common thing, like you imply.

--------------------------------------------

NCAA triple crowns have been won 8 times.

First, comparing Vin/Oregon to John McDonnell/Arkansas is almost unfair.

Winning the triple crown is tough, and Oregon almost did it last year. They had Salazar coached 20 point man Rupp aiding them, and still could not pull it off. It was a close exciting meet with many factors and 4 teams in the hunt for the win going into the 4x400m.

Despite failing to win the triple crown, Oregon still had a great year.

Arkansas did win the triple crown Five times and Utep did it three times. No other team has, and no women's team has.

Arkansas did it Three times in a row one time for a "Triple Triple " That is winning nine national titles in a row. ( 1991 to 1994 ) They also won an NCAA record 13 NCAA indoor titles in a row starting in 1984. Having the privilege of running for John, we never heard him mention "rebuilding year" or "we don't focus on cross counrty/indoor or outdoors'. He just had us focus on doing the best we could for every season that came up.

Lananna should slap Acost. Actually anyone that ever had or ever will meet the kid should slap him.

Portland focuses on distance runners similar to the way Ok State does. No crime there.

Loaded with foreign runners? Really? Their #4 & #6 from the regional are the only two true foreigners in their top 10 or 11 runners. Lets look a little closer there - Rob does a very good job considering most of his athletes are from the NW corner of the country:

Betterbed - Washington

Osoro - North Dakota

Dunbar - Alaska

Kipchumba - Kenya

Geiger - Washington

Malde - Norway

Bassett - Oregon

Don't forget Frerker, normally in their top 7 - Washington

Or Robert Cosby - also from Washington.

So, in their known top 9 - There are 4 Washingtonians, 1 Oregonian, 1 Alaskan - that's 6 from the NW. 2 "foreigners" - and 1 from North Dakota - no WAY do you count Osoro as a foreigner. Rounding out the top 10 for UP is probably Aiden Irish...another Washingtonian.

University of Oregon has a bunch of Californians....so what? Might as well be a foreign country.

Agreed - but they need to figure it out quick. The race they ran wasn't close to what I was expecting them to.

Probably, although Vin has a little longer leash due to his "bringing back" the distance program. And Smith, in my estimation, was no prize either.

As long as they keep recruiting the way they do, they should continue to be a force to be reckoned with. However, I think one telling sign about them is the fact that Dunbar chose UP over UO - his dad went to both schools - and I'm sure he heard from both extensively - so his son choosing the Pilots over the Ducks says something.

Portland should be around for a while too. Their top seven at regionals went Senior, Frosh, Frosh, Soph, Frosh, Frosh, Frosh. And they held out a Junior and a Soph.

AND have a bunch more Frosh hanging out there....Irish & McDonald to name a couple.

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