DId Lasse Viren Blood Dope?

Avocados Number wrote:

Clarifying that answer . . . anonymous posters on this message board have no knowledge about whether he did or not.

I doubt that he did in 1972. I have less confidence about 1976 and 1980.

I don't understand why you are giving an answer to the question, if, as you say, "anonymous posters on this message board have no knowledge about whether he did or not".

Are you saying that you are not anonymous, or that you have no knowledge either, but you are just giving us your opinion?

ventolin wrote:

agree

absolute nonsense

emiel ran 13'13.0wr in '73

in his dreams woud he be a 12'48 guy transported from '73 to '09

iaaf have had a speed limit ( energy return ) on tracks for decades

Actually he ABSOLUTELY would be a 12:48 guy in 2009, if not faster. He was an Olympic and European Medalist and multi-time WR-setter. With the drugs that are available now, he would be right near today's WRs in the 3000, 5000, and 10,000.

This is not about Viren, but I recently stumbled upon an article from the SI Vault about the 1984 US Olympic Cycling team. Now, I have known that they blood-doped for about 20 years, because it was recycled in magazines for years after it happened (and I was a cycling fan since 1985).

But what did surprise me was that they interviewed so many of the coaches and physiologists and doctors that worked for the National Team at the time. Some of them were against it and counseled the riders to avoid it, but many of them were all for it and urged the riders to do it and told them that if they didn't they would fail.

Ed Burke was the biggest of the bad guys in this. interesting that he was a great masters rider in his own right and he died of heart failure at age 54.

Look the article up on the Vault, it is worth a read. It is really one of America's first drug scandals, like 20 years before Marion Jones. At least the first one that was so public.

newname wrote:Actually he ABSOLUTELY would be a 12:48 guy in 2009, if not faster. He was an Olympic and European Medalist and multi-time WR-setter. With the drugs that are available now, he would be right near today's WRs in the 3000, 5000, and 10,000.

drivel

nurmi had more golds & more wrs than emiel

he be a 12'30/26'00 guy if transported to '09 ???

And then he had some of that blood removed and saved for later.

That total Finn training group was tight, and as it turns out, Dirty.

After a certain age you don't have to explain to a child the difference between right and wrong.

Viren was a police officer, who should have known the difference.

Don't for a minute believe he didn't believe he was getting an unfair advantage.

He blood doped, his training team blood doped. They were eventually found out...and all the "great" Finnish runners disappeared.

Coincidence? I think not.

Come on Already...... wrote:

A Duck wrote:

Yeah, pretty lame.

No joke and not lame. They did a performance test in France about 5yrs ago and that is exactly what it worked out to.

Did they go in a time machine and test the tracks in Munich and Montreal?

Casual Observer... wrote:

And then he had some of that blood removed and saved for later.

That total Finn training group was tight, and as it turns out, Dirty.

After a certain age you don't have to explain to a child the difference between right and wrong.

Viren was a police officer, who should have known the difference.

Don't for a minute believe he didn't believe he was getting an unfair advantage.

He blood doped, his training team blood doped. They were eventually found out...and all the "great" Finnish runners disappeared.

Coincidence? I think not.

keino lost to pekka in '72

the guy ran 1'44.5, almost the wr of 1'44.3, so he couda possibly won the 800 as well

he had no 800 ability of note prior to '72

he was no spring chicken at 24y in '72 games

he probably was in 3'31/3'32 shape with ease of his 1500 win

he had no 1500 time worth bothering with before '72

i'm pretty sure keino had a legit case to be cheated out of successive 1500 golds, albeit being an ole boy dragged out of retirement in '70

keino wasn't too happy about gammoudi 5k in '68, which is no surprise as his 3'34 win showed speed which shoud be unmatchable in sprint in a slow 5k

keino was probably the most cheated elite distance runner in history...

Pekka beat Keino at 1500 in '71. I don't know what their times were.

I think that you and I generally agree that Keino has been underrated by many. I think that's especially true of Ryun's U.S. fans, who will argue that Keino couldn't have beaten Ryun in '68 without some combination of altitude and pacing, and wouldn't have beaten Ryun in '72 if Ryun had managed to stay on his feet in the heat. (I don't agree with those views, nor do I agree with those who assert that Ryun was fouled in '72 and should have been allowed to advance.) But I'm surprised that you say he was probably the most cheated elite distance runner in history. How was he cheated, and by whom?

So basically you are saying that anyone who has beaten a Kenyan must be cheating, right?

As you are Kenyan yourself I suppose its no surprise that you should be so clearly blinkered by nationalism. You have absolutely no evidence to support doping by Vasala or Gammoudi. Unbelievable.

hi ventolin

the finns may well have been dirty but pekka did double his mileage from 1971 to 1972 - or so they say

Said it in the '70's and still say it.....Viren's performances wre incredible whether he doped or not. Personally I think he did, but don't care - he was my hero.

Monumental effort wrote:So basically you are saying that anyone who has beaten a Kenyan must be cheating, right?

idiot

no

a 3'34.9 at mexico coudn't expect to lose a slow 5k, even at altitude, considering he was ex-5k wr holder ( still top-3 that day ) & still hugely 3k wr holder

pekka just showed up from nowhere in '71 to win '72 & he probably couda won the 800

As you are Kenyan yourself

err...

moron

not that what it says on my passport

I suppose its no surprise that you should be so clearly blinkered by nationalism

idiot

i said keino had good argument to be cheated out of '72 1500

it's even more incredulous that as former 5k wr holder & current 3k one, he lost a slow 5k when he couda been in upto 3'26 shape at sea-level

You have absolutely no evidence to support doping by Vasala or Gammoudi. Unbelievable.

moron

see above/numerous for "reindeer boyz"

as for gammoudi, he had something like 13'25pb

keino considers that an inexplicable loss - he probably was in ~ 13'00 - 13'10 shape in '65 when setting 5k wr & at worst for that in '68 given training time off/lots of chickens to eat, on orders of the big kenyatta

musta been an execrable race well outside 3'40

offer ?

eh ???

i reckon keino 3'26 shape in '68

if you know better than noakes, offer it

ryun 3'29/3'30 shape that day

illness/injury had crushed him

he was low-1'40/low-3'24 in '67

this vid of an ~ 50+ finish in trials 1500, running lot wide on last lap, some in lane 3 ( !!! ) shows glimpses of the unmatched brilliance, when 1/2 dozen seconds off his '67 ability

no

ryun probably got himself into 3'31/3'32 shape in '72

certainly wouda whupped keino

can't see him beating pekka

he needed 1'44 speed to do that in '72

i don't think it was there

err...

see reindeer milk & finns of '72

then gammoudi a guy who shoudn't been within a russian women's shot put throw of keino on the last lap

ventolin^3 wrote:

no

ryun probably got himself into 3'31/3'32 shape in '72

certainly wouda whupped keino

can't see him beating pekka

he needed 1'44 speed to do that in '72

i don't think it was there

Ventolin,

I don't know if you've seen this before but it may be of interest to you

the 1972 olympic trials results for 800m / 1500m and a summary of the race

800 Meters - July 1

1. Dave Wottle (BG)............................1:44.3 =WR

2. Rick Wohlhuter (UCTC)..................1:45.0

3. Ken Swenson (US-A)......................1:45.1

4. Jim Ryun (CW).............................1:45.2

5. Ron Phillips (Ill)...............................1:45.3

6. Rick Brown (Cal)..............................1:45.4

7. Marcel Philippe (Fordham)...............1:46.0

8. Tommy Fulton (TSU)........................1:47.3

Fulton set the pace in the final, passing 200 in 25.2, and went past the bell in 52.0, with Wottle at the back of the pack in 52.9. Ryun suddenly kicked with 300m to go, drawing Swenson and Wottle with him, and leaving a gap to the slender Wohlhuter. Ryun’s fifth 100 was run in a too fast 11.5, and his third metric furlong took 24.8. Only Wottle was able to stay with Ryun, and the two of them were 5 meters clear of Swenson as they entered the finishing straight. Wottle held form well and moved ahead, as the others began to close in on Ryun. Wohlhuter and then Swenson passed the tiring Ryun, who fought back unavailingly. Wottle won by 6 yards, but there was less than 4 yards between 2nd and 6th, with Ryun, Ron Philips and Rick Brown losing out. Only Swenson and Ryun failed to set a pb, and from a larger perspective, it was the first race to produce more than 2 men at 1:45.5 or better...6 men managing 1:45.4 !

1500 Meters - July 8

1. Jim Ryun (CW)..................................3:41.5

2. Dave Wottle (BG)..............................3:42.3

3. Bob Wheeler (Duke).........................3:42.4

4. Jerome Howe (KS)............................3:43.0

5. Howell Michael (USMC).....................3:43.0

6. Bruce MacDonald (WVTC).................3:43.8

7. Reggie McAfee (NC)..........................3:44.1

8. Bruce Fischer (Syr)............................3:45.2

9. Jere Van Dyk (CW).............................3:45.7

10. Cliff West (Cal)................................3:47.8

Willie Eashman (Hay St).........................Dnf

Joe Savage (Man)...................................Dnc

Ryun repeated his curious double in 1968 of not making the Olympic 800m squad but winning the 1500m trial. Looking listless until 300m to go, Ryun outran Wottle, beating him by 6 yards and running his last 400m in 51.2. Down in 10th place was Cliff West, who was reincarnated 5 years later as a 200m man, running 20.53 !

Considering Ryun ran a 1:45.2 800m with very uneven splits (fifth 100 in 11.5!) I think he could have run 1:44.xx with more even pacing.

Plus, he out kicked Wottle in a slow 1500m with a last lap of 51.2 after making a move with 300 to go to win the olympic trials 1500m.

His speed was definitely there. Certainly not 1967 level but good enough to run 1:44 at least. He did run a 3:52.8 solo mile in toronto before the games that year. It was the third fastest mile in history behind his two world record runs.

I think he would have won in munich had he not been mis-seeded and then tripped by another runner (talk about bad luck)

WOW !!!

I thought he might have been low/mid-1'43/3'31 - 3'32 shape in '72 on retrospect

This clearly indicates more like a maverick by '72

This is more indication of high-1'41/low-1'42, but he just blew it ?!?!

Lasse Viren joked that he drank lots of reindeer milk. He wasn't serious. If reindeer milk was that beneficial for Lasse and any other runner, everybody would be drinking it. As for blood doping, probably not. Re-infused blood back into the veins is dangerous and poses possible health issues such as infections. Such blood is thicker and forces the heart to work harder to get blood throughout the body. Every athlete is different. In order for Viren be at gold medal fitness when the time was right it was necessary he run mediocre performances during non-Olympic years and then meticulous build himself up to world record strength by way of high mileage and visits to high elevation such as Nairobi, Kenya and Bogota, Colombia. On a personal level, he couldn't race high class performances year after year like some of the other world class runners. It had to be mediocre up until months before the Games when he stepped it up and ran races and time trials to indicate what kind of shape he was in. By these he knew whether he was ready for world record and gold medal performances. For Lasse it just all had to be that way.

Lasse Viren joked that he drank lots of reindeer milk. If it was proven that he did, then everybody and their mother would be drinking it. Surely reindeer milk would not hurt anyone, but if anything serve merely as a placebo. There is the case of a Soviet quadruple sculls team competing in a large international regatta in 1972. Before the final heat the coach secretly called his rowers aside and gave them each a pill he assured them would give them the edge needed to win the contest. Each athlete swallowed the pill, believing their coach without question. After their winning performance, the team reported that they felt as loose and as strong well past the halfway mark as they did at the start. Later the athletes were shocked when the coach admitted that those pills they took consisted entirely of baking soda, having no physical affect on their performance at all.

Of course he did.

And, no, not everybody was blood doping.

As for the argument others were training similarly, that overlooks the fact Viren was the one with the 2mile and 5000 WR.

120mi/ week and no basic speed = slow

I was at the 1972 and 1976 Olympic Games watching. I saw the 10000m final in Montreal, Viren looks unbeatable. In the Marathon, I saw the leaders at there different spots and Viren looked really easy like he was jogging. If was only after McGill University section he started to grimace. You have to remember he had less than 24 hours after that battle in the 5000m with Quax, Dixon, Foster, Stewart, and Hildebrand.......who were all fresh with the exception of Foster.

I think when he lost contact with Kardong and Lismont, he let off the gas a little. I think he would have been at 2:12. Let us not forget the temperature dropped over the last 10000m and it started raining hard, not ideal for the end of a marathon.

No one knows if he blood doped, however if you read his book, his training was really hard, it will make your head spin. Training three times a day at altitude in Bogota....