Could Coe had gone sub 13 in the 5000m

Coe's best 3000 was not that great at 7:54.32, so just because he killed a workout of 800 repeats, it does not translate automatically to a great 3000 or 5000.

That 7.5k road race time is intriguing. That's one and a half times 5k in 14 minutes.

119 wrote:

If anyone is questioning Coe's aerobic ability they should take into account the 45 (maybe it was 43) minute 10 mile tempo he claims to have done in one of his books.

That claim is even less credible than Peter's claims about Seb's thirty-mile training weeks.

I remember that Seb once said that he was seriously considering moving up from 800/1500 to 10,000 in the Olympics, but I still haven't seen any hard evidence that he could run world-class times at that distance.

Of course, there is always the example of Saïd Aouita, who was world-class from 800 to 10,000 despite claiming not to train more than 50 mpw and also claiming to have never run longer than 15k in his entire life. I don't believe Saïd's claims about his training, either, but at least he put up real rather than hypothetical times on the track over 5k/10k. I don't think that Seb could match Saïd over 5k/10k any more than Saïd could match Seb over 400m.

Walker actually did regain his ability to run long sessions but was a bit disappointed that his race times didn't change much. Still, he ran his mile PB 7 years after his first time under 3:50.

There is also a story that he jumped into a local Marathon and led through 20 miles at sub 5:00 pace and dropped out to save his legs for a workout the next day.

To Meme:

If you think that Seb Coe got toxoplasmosis from blood doping, then why the hell did it take Peter and Seb almost two years to figure it out? He started running poorly and by all accounts the Coes were mystified as to the cause.

Peter Coe was a very scientific and methodical man. He wouldn't even introduce altitude training at a certain stage of Seb's training because he considered that it was not a controlled variable at that point.

Don't you think that if Coe had blood doped, then Peter would have known about the risks beforehand? Or at least have identified a cure soon afterwards (knowing what to have been looking for). Instead he floundered for two seasons?

Doesn't add up. For that reason alone, I think that Seb Coe was clean and his account of coming down with toxoplasmosis is true.

Peter Coe was a very scientific and methodical man. He

Yes

coe at the los angeles olympics 1984

aug 03 800m round 1, first - 1.45.71

aug 04 800m round 2, third - 1.46.75

aug 05 800m semi, first - 1.45.51

aug 06 800m final, second - 1.43.64

aug 09 1500m round 1, second - 3.45.30

aug 10 1500m semi, third - 3.35.81

aug 11 1500m final, first - 3.32.53

awesome

Southern 12-stage road relay @ Wimbledon (hilly course!!!)

All time top 20

Short Leg 3 miles 553 yards

1 Steve Harris Shaftesbury Harriers 14.48 1986

2= Steve Ovett Brighton & Hove 14.52 1980

2= Ian Stewart Invicta 14.52 1982

4 Dave Clarke Hercules Wimbledon 14.57 1981

5 Mark Rowland Phoenix 14.59 1991

6 Steve Crabb Borough of Enfield 15.03 1991

7 Seb Coe Haringey 15.07 1984

8 James Starling Southampton 15.08 1992

9 B Smith Thurrock 15.10 1974

10= John Gladwin Belgrave 15.13 1986

10= Peter Standing Brighton & Hove 15.13 1976

12= James Espir Shaftesbury Harriers 15.16 1981

12= Billy Dee Luton United 15.16 1990

14= Julian Goater Shaftesbury Harriers 15.17 1984

14= Colin Reitz Newham & Essex Beagles 15.17 1985

14= John Sherban Shaftesbury Harriers 15.17 1988

17 A Pettigrew Windsor, Slough & Eton 15.18 1984

18 Eamonn Martin Basildon 15.19 1985

19 Jon Wigley Invicta 15.21 1979

20 Bernie Ford Aldershot, Farnham & D 15.22 1981

Just like all the athletes who have been caught and were mystified how drugs got into their system??

His comparative lack of achievement at the longer distances could have indicated that he was not blood doping, unless he was very selective on which races he chose to blood dope.

The fact that his father was so scientific in my opinion just adds to the likelihood he was blood doping - he must have known about it and in all the interviews of the time that I have watched I cannot remember Seb or his father talking about drug use at all when it was fairly well known that blood doping was the selective method of cheating at the time.

Considering the race was in early April and Coe had only resumed training in the January, after no running at all since the previous July (due to toxoplasmosis), his performance here was pretty impressive.

The idea he picked up toxoplasmosis from blood doping is as ridiculous as the idea he and his father would risk his life doing it in the first place. As a previous poster pointed out, that would have been the first port of call for explaining his problems and wasting 2 seasons if he were doping. I seriously doubt many if any individuals were doing this with the high risks involved (much more dangerous than EPO) at the time. There is little evidence even the Communist nations involved in state approved doping were practising this in the early 80's, otherwise they would have been a more dominant force in men's middle distance. Their advantages in the women's events would appear to imply that if anything they were using steroids, which were much more beneficial to women than men.

I can't remember any case of a top athlete dropping down dead due to complications involved with blood transfusions at the time, unlike those for possible EPO use that emerged amongst athletes and cyclists.

middle distance wrote:

I seriously doubt many if any individuals were doing this with the high risks involved (much more dangerous than EPO) at the time.

Actually, that was the very year that Vaino was disqualified in the Olympics because he had carelessly blood-doped using his own steroid-tainted blood!

I don't think that those relay-leg times show much, except that some guy named Steve Harris (??) covered the distance nineteen seconds faster than Coe did, and some guy named "B. Smith Thurrock" covered the distance in 1974 only three seconds slower than Coe did in 1984. I don't know either of those guys, so I apologize to them if I appear to be belittling their place in running history, but I doubt that either of them ever approached thirteen minutes for 5,000 meters.

(I also don't believe that Coe did absolutely no running during the last five months of 1983, but that's largely because I don't believe most of what I've heard about his training or lack thereof.)

Steve Harris - 13.30.79 / 27.59.33 / 62.08

Barry Smith - 13.21 / 28.06.13 / 62.49

Thanks. I guess I also owe an apology to "Thurrock," whatever that is. :)

Some other PBs included

1 Steve Harris Shaftesbury Harriers 14.48 1986 - 13.30.79 / 27.59.33 / 62.08

2= Steve Ovett Brighton & Hove 14.52 1980 - 13.20.06 / 28.16 (road)

2= Ian Stewart Invicta 14.52 1982 - (not THE Ian Stewart, but a 3.53.20 mile and 7.43.90 3k guy)

4 Dave Clarke Hercules Wimbledon 14.57 1981 - 13.22.53 / 27.55.77 / 62.11

5 Mark Rowland Phoenix 14.59 1991 - 8.07.96 (3k Chase)/ 13.21.83

6 Steve Crabb Borough of Enfield 15.03 1991

7 Seb Coe Haringey 15.07 1984

8 James Starling Southampton 15.08 1992

9 B Smith Thurrock 15.10 1974 - 13.21.14 / 28.06.13 / 62.49

10= John Gladwin Belgrave 15.13 1986

10= Peter Standing Brighton & Hove 15.13 1976

12= James Espir Shaftesbury Harriers 15.16 1981

12= Billy Dee Luton United 15.16 1990 - 13.27.41 / 28.00.64 / 62.33

14= Julian Goater Shaftesbury Harriers 15.17 1984 - 13.15.59 / 27.34.58

14= Colin Reitz Newham & Essex Beagles 15.17 1985 - 8.12.11 (3k chase) / 13.37.31 / 28.07 (road)

14= John Sherban Shaftesbury Harriers 15.17 1988 - 13.39.43 / 28.35.61

17 A Pettigrew Windsor, Slough & Eton 15.18 1984

18 Eamonn Martin Basildon 15.19 1985 - 13.17.84 / 27.23.06

19 Jon Wigley Invicta 15.21 1979 - 28.35.84

20 Bernie Ford Aldershot, Farnham & D 15.22 1981 - 13.26.0 / 27.43.74

2= Ian Stewart Invicta 14.52 1982 - (not THE Ian Stewart, but a 3.53.20 mile and 7.43.90 3k guy)

[/quote]

It must suck to run those times and still be referred to as "Ian Stewart, but not THE Ian Stewart."

Some more PBs:

6 Steve Crabb Borough of Enfield 15.03 1991 - 1.45.69 / 3.33.34 / 7.52.98

8 James Starling Southampton 15.08 1992 - 8.10 3k U20

10= John Gladwin Belgrave 15.13 1986 - 3.35.26 / 7.58.16i

10= Peter Standing Brighton & Hove 15.13 1976 - 13.40.45 / 28.31.51

12= James Espir Shaftesbury Harriers 15.16 1981 - 3.38.2 / 7.51.92

"Could Coe had gone sub 13 in the 5000m?"

Not without giving up the ability to run 1:41 for 800m and possibly even 3:29 for 1500m. It would have required an altered focus to his training, losing on the shorter/faster events to gain more in endurance.

I was only asking whether he had the talent to do so, not

whether he had to give up 800/1500. And I agree with you that

he would have had to.

I don't think his 1500m potential would be effected too much. After all Aouita managed to run 3:30 & 3:46 the year he broke 13 mins. He also ran 1:44 for 800 that year (87) and I think Coe could churn out 1:44's almost at will at any time of the season. Of course a focus on trying to run 13 mins would mean he would have to sacrifice 1:41 ability.

If you think about some other famous milers who moved up during the same era as Coe, which was one in which athletes were more concerned about medals and wins than records or times (on the whole), there are plenty of precedents of them running pretty fast over 5000m:

Moorcroft ~ 13:00 (WR holder)

Maree ~ 13:01 (with only a 28:21 pb for 10,000m)

Gonzales ~ 13:12

Abascal ~ 13:12

Wessinghage ~ 13:12 (European Champion)

O'Mara ~ 13:13

Coghlan ~ 13:16 (World Champion)

Ovett ~ 13:20 (Commonwealth Champion)

I'm sure most of these guys just "toyed" with the event; certainly a past his best Ovett looked like he couldn't be bothered; and could have run faster if the circuit at the time was like it is today. Coe was as talented as any of these athletes and with his more disciplined approach than most in wanting to find out fast he could run a distance, there is no reason at all why he couldn't have run at least 13:10 back in the day.

If we're talking about potential, ....take his talent, train specifically for 5k, put him into todays environment and sub 13 wouldn't be a problem at all.

Avocados Number wrote:

I don't think that those relay-leg times show much, except that some guy named Steve Harris (??) covered the distance nineteen seconds faster than Coe did,

Steve Harris was a pretty decent runner in the early '80s. I think he broke 28:00 for 10,000m.

That doesn't really prove anything at all regarding the topic at hand.