Sat down with him after a road race
Sat down with him after a road race
The Finns weren't just having their blood re-infused into them, they were having superoxygenated blood infused into them. Their blood was drawn for storage always at the end of a high altitude training stint.
SUPERoxygenated blood, people.
Do you really think Vaatainen was "normally" capable of a 52.8 last lap in the twilight of an "undistinguished" running career.
All the Finns who went to high-altitude camps were dopers.....THAT IS WHY THE FINNISH FEDERATION SENT THEM THERE.....to oxygenate the blood (sort of like high grade gasoline).
If Pre was on the same program as Viren, he (PRE) would have looked like he was floating those last laps at Munich.
Blood doping done right is worth 20 seconds, minimum, in a 5,000.
For most of us it's worth about 30secs over 5k and about 70secs over 10k and 5plus minutes in a marathon. I doubt it is such an advantage to elite athletes though, perhaps 15s,40s,and 3mins. So a 13.10, 27.30, 2.08 runner becomes a 12.55, 26.50, 2.05 runner.
Perhaps Renato could give us a more accurate picture of the potential advantages of blood doping -based on the experiences of the Italians in the 80s.
Another aspect I'm curious about is long term benefits of training during periods of blood doping or EPO use.
I imagine one would be able to absorb higher levels of training during this period. Once the regime is ceased is there long lasting benefits from the higher level of training. Would the body continue to have the ability to absorb those higher levels of training despite no longer having the blood boosting.
Canova Renato wrote:
I was the first time in US in 1974. At that time, I was in Los Angeles, and it was possible to buy anabolic steroids in the Supermarket, like today is possible fot vitamins and integrators.
I don't think that we can say, TODAY, the athletes using these steroids were MENTALLY DOPERS.
Today, using CREATIN is ok. May be that, after 5 years, somebody decides that Creatin is doping : can we say that all the athletes using creatin today are dopers ?
We must look at every era with the eyes of that era, not with the eyes of today.
At the beginning of 1970, all the Finnish athletes used the blood transfusion, and, at that time, ALL THE WORLD looked at the Finnish Scientists as the best example for supporting athletes and performances.
This procedure was put outlaw in 1985, but from the beginning of 80 somebody started to fight against it (for example, Sandro Donati in Italy). We had Italian runners using it (as Alberto Cova, Scartezzini, Antibo), and somebody that refused (as Panetta, Mei, Bordin). When this procedure was put outlaw, everybody ended to do it, and Antibo started to improve a lot....
Everybody knew about the Finnish system, so Viren never denied to use. He told that "never he did something wrong" for the laws and the mentality of that period.
Different is to CHEAT today, using something not allowed or, worst, TO TRY TO BUILD SOMETHING NEW, NOT POSSIBLE TO FIND (Balco).
The first using to change his blood was the famous cyclist Jacques Anquetil, in the early 60.
The marathon runners of the beginning of the Century used to get strychnine (one of the most powerful poissons) for not feeling fatigue.
The runners of the period immediately after the second War used to get MICOREN for supporting their heart.
The science at that time was not advanced like today, and many things were still to be discovered.
Personally, I never gave anything to my athletes, because I believe that the most important "dope" is the personal motivation, and I work on this point. I think that, working very hard with continuity, it's possible to bring your body to a level of performance unimaginable, the problem is to maintain the motivation for long time.
So,my idea is that the weakness of the athletes is expecially under the PSYCHOLOGICAl POINT OF VIEW, and they want to receive support from something that they can get in order to become sure to increase their training.
Different is the situation about the increase of MUSCULAR POWER and EXPLOSIVITY : in this case, using the normal training without any support (allowed or forbidden) cannot produce the same result. It's not a case that THERE ARE NO RECORDS IN THROWING AFTER 1988, when the Antidoping started to be more serious against every type of steroid.
Oh please get off your moral high horse. Just because it was not illegal at the time and other runners were doing it does not mean they were not cheaters. The point is, they were trying to get an unfair advantage. If their consciense was so free they would openly admit to doping during the peaks of their careers. Like during a post-race interview when the world was asking, "How did you just do that." Instead, the admissions did not come till decades later with the attached "We did nothing wrong." Yes, so innocent yet wise enough to keep their mouths shut. The Finns were cheaters and a disgrace to the Olympics and running. The Italians, and anybody else who doped were just as much of a disgrace to the sport. Those runners should have their medals stripped.
silly old fossil wrote:
The Finns weren't just having their blood re-infused into them, they were having superoxygenated blood infused into them. Their blood was drawn for storage always at the end of a high altitude training stint.
SUPERoxygenated blood, people.
Do you really think Vaatainen was "normally" capable of a 52.8 last lap in the twilight of an "undistinguished" running career.
All the Finns who went to high-altitude camps were dopers.....THAT IS WHY THE FINNISH FEDERATION SENT THEM THERE.....to oxygenate the blood (sort of like high grade gasoline).
If Pre was on the same program as Viren, he (PRE) would have looked like he was floating those last laps at Munich.
Blood doping done right is worth 20 seconds, minimum, in a
5,000.
THANK YOU 'Fossil' and others for your recent factual posts.
This is what I was looking for, you all have better memories than me and I truly appreciate the details and viewpoints. I agree with the last few posters.
The Finns high altitude program was part of the blood doping/cheating scheme.
And seeking an unfair advantage, as they and others were, was clearly to cheat.
Cheating is cheating whether there is a test for it or not.
(I do not consider wearing a breathing device while sleeping, cheating, it is a form of training, stressing the system to naturally create more epo without having to disrupt your life and live at high altitude.)
Raised Eyebrow wrote:
Michael Johnson gave back a medal, because a relay teammate later admitted to doping.
I think Viren is a fraud and that is why he had such a low profile over the years.
You hear more about Nurmi, than Viren.
Michael Johnson should give back his medals. Doped to his eyeballs.
One of the big names from the 70's suspected of blood doping was a runner named Jos Hermens. Apparently everyone knew he was doing it. It allowed him to improve enough to set records in the 1 hr run, etc. Wonder what he's up to these days?
Yeah, I know why one would have think that.
A part of me wants to say they all doped.
The inside word at the time was that Michael was not a doper.
Having seen him up close at the time, he did not have the profile of a doper (yellow eyeballs) etc.
The dude also worked hard for a really really really long time before popping his world records.
And he was tested a ton, and not affiliated with any of the cheats.
I think if they could have brought him down with the Pettigrews and others they would have.
silly old fossil wrote:
The Finns weren't just having their blood re-infused into them, they were having superoxygenated blood infused into them. Their blood was drawn for storage always at the end of a high altitude training stint.
SUPERoxygenated blood, people.
Do you really think Vaatainen was "normally" capable of a 52.8 last lap in the twilight of an "undistinguished" running career.
All the Finns who went to high-altitude camps were dopers.....THAT IS WHY THE FINNISH FEDERATION SENT THEM THERE.....to oxygenate the blood (sort of like high grade gasoline).
If Pre was on the same program as Viren, he (PRE) would have looked like he was floating those last laps at Munich.
Blood doping done right is worth 20 seconds, minimum, in a 5,000.
Cheaters or no, you do understand that there is LESS oxygen at altitude not more, right? That is why people train at altitude: to stimulate increased hematocrit.
He is still a liar and a cheater for denying it if he used blood doping.
Really... wrote:
silly old fossil wrote:The Finns weren't just having their blood re-infused into them, they were having superoxygenated blood infused into them. Their blood was drawn for storage always at the end of a high altitude training stint.
SUPERoxygenated blood, people.
Do you really think Vaatainen was "normally" capable of a 52.8 last lap in the twilight of an "undistinguished" running career.
All the Finns who went to high-altitude camps were dopers.....THAT IS WHY THE FINNISH FEDERATION SENT THEM THERE.....to oxygenate the blood (sort of like high grade gasoline).
If Pre was on the same program as Viren, he (PRE) would have looked like he was floating those last laps at Munich.
Blood doping done right is worth 20 seconds, minimum, in a 5,000.
Cheaters or no, you do understand that there is LESS oxygen at altitude not more, right? That is why people train at altitude: to stimulate increased hematocrit.
Yeah, your blood is not "superoxygenated" ever. The altitude is part of the blood boosting process (but not only for that) as you can build more cells (higher hematocrit) and then pull some blood out and stay at altitude to stimulate production again. Then you can re-infuse the rbc's you took out just before competition. The altitude speeds the process and raises you hematocrit higher than the process would be at sea level.
Maybe you consider "superoxygenated" blood to be blood with a hematocrit that is quite high (50-60%) since it does carry more oxygen by virtue of its higher density of RBC's?
Raised Eyebrow wrote:
Okay easy immature cheap shot hope you enjoyed it.
Actually I've been holding back on the easy ones.
After all it's not possible to have meaningful conversation with a drunk.
Raised Eyebrow wrote:
Sir...
First there is a difference between attaching a device to breath through - and HAVING YOUR BLOOD REMOVED, FROZEN, AND THEN REINJECTED INTO YOU MONTHS OR YEARS LATER.
One is passive, makes you strain, saves you the cost of living at high altitude. Natural and clean.
Synthetic high altitude training. Seems fair.
The other is INVASIVE and adding extra blood volume to the body.
Hmmm.... very interesting. You see the world cut and dry, black and white, huh? Yeah, it makes things easier I suppose to live that way, but it's a lie.
You think that sleeping in a tent while breathing in synthetic, man-made air is NATURAL??? You think that living in an environment where one can sleep at 12,000 feet, and then wake up and immediately train at sea level is a natural environment?? It is NOT "synthetic high altitude training" as you put it, because one is not TRAINING in the environment.
Nothing is more natural than the air we breathe, but you think that breathing in manufactured air that spurs the body to produce more EPO is natural and normal?
And WADA has been considering banning the tents for awhile, so clearly there is something questionable there.
I really don't see transfusing one's own blood back into one any stranger than breathing in synthetic air.
Both those are judgment calls. The real bottom line is: BOTH are considered performance enhancing, and both have been controversial but were not illegal when Viren was doing his routine, and Paula and others have been doing theirs.
I would be willing to wager a good number of the 80's runners doped at some point...
not having it wrote:
He is still a liar and a cheater for denying it if he used blood doping.
I have never read a quote from Viren in which he commented either way as to whether or not he doped, blood doped, or anything else. His answers have always been ambiguous. I was in Finland for almost a month in 1975 and raced against him three times. We never spoke but I did talk to a number of people who knew him and a couple of them told me that Viren liked having people believe he was blood doping because he thought they'd feel like he had an unfair advantage.
There's a lot being made here over the fact that he's never unequivocally denined blood doping but I don't see what difference it would make if he made such a statement. regina Jacobs and Mary Slaney both said that they never used any illegal PEDs. So did Roger Clemens and heaven only knows how many other dopers.
And despite what many here would like to believe, Viren was not a cheater if he blood doped as it was legal at the time. It may seem to you like cheating but what counts and doesn't count as cheating is pretty clearly defined by the IAAF.
If doping was considered unfair by his competitors then doing it would not very sporting.
The inside word wrote:
The inside word at the time was that Michael was not a doper.
Having seen him up close at the time, he did not have the profile of a doper (yellow eyeballs) etc.
The dude also worked hard for a really really really long time before popping his world records.
And he was tested a ton, and not affiliated with any of the cheats.
I think if they could have brought him down with the Pettigrews and others they would have.
Wrong. The inside word is he was on HGH and 'roids by the time he produced his greatest achievements. The inside word was that in '92 he was caught just before Barcelona. The inside word is officials agreed that the sport didn't need another black eye like Ben Johnson in the previous Oly Games. So Johnson was told to stay clean, and continuously tested up to and through the Games. If he were caught again, he would then have to face the music. The 'food poisoning' story was concocted to account for his dramatic drop in performance in the 200.
After that, the inside word is Mr. Clean, MJ, started experimenting with HGH, other drugs and masking agents. His physique became almost comical looking by 1996. Comical that is if anyone thinks that what he became physically looks like anyone normal.
The PC crowd will scream over story like this and others. But they'll try and feast on Viren. I know several stories like this. The Johson story was first related to me by the former Jamaican National Head Coach, then some other officials told me the same. I know for a fact the goofs at TafNews knew about this and simply buried it.
Not being very sporting is different than cheating. There are people who think it's not sporting to refuse to lead a race and then winning with a kick.
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
I really don't see transfusing one's own blood back into one any stranger than breathing in synthetic air.
.
How about a world of difference? Take out a pint of blood and store it. After your body naturally recovers that blood you put that pint back and now you have a pint extra. If all an athlete had to do was move to altitude to get the same advantages of doping, then they would do that instead of doping, which potentially put your life in danger. Ever wonder why so many Tour de France guys have mysteriously died in the prime of their lives? I don't think an altitude tent can kill you.
He is still a liar and a fraud for omitting to tell the truth if he did dope.
scottish whiner wrote:
Raised Eyebrow wrote:Okay easy immature cheap shot hope you enjoyed it.
Actually I've been holding back on the easy ones.
After all it's not possible to have meaningful conversation with a drunk.
Geez, what a sad world you must live in.
"After all it's not possible to have meaningful conversation with a drunk."
Then You must be the drunk in this conversation, cos I sure ain't!