Tinman, HADD, JK, JTupperD, anybody with information about Tim Noakes?

D.Jozast wrote:

Seems like the author of Lore of Running, Tim Noakes, MD, is inclined to take some very different views in regard to training & ExPhys. Am I reading correctly that he does not believe in the standard MaxVO2 theory of the Max plateau? Is he also saying that that there is no Lactate turn point? I need to read closer but he appears to say that there is not correct training zones similar to most coaches/experts are saying here on this board. All in all his view points seem to fly in the face of commonly held training dogma, or my understanding of them. !??

Something that I took from a lecture one time was that lactate threshold is a concept and should be viewed in that manner rather than some fixed and magical point. Ed Coyle looked at the relationship of various methods of determining LT and how they related to 40K TT performance (cyclists). All of the methods were closely correlated (I think the worst method was r=.88 or something like that. The point being that it did not matter what method was used since all the ones selected correlated well with performance.

Coaches and athletes tend to want a fixed point and scientists working with them give them a value. Too often that value is taken as gospel.

Other factors that need to be considered is the glycogen status of the athlete if one really is measuring lactate concentrations in the blood. I have seen this several times where the lactate curve looks like a person is improving (since HLa+ values are lower than previously at the same pace) but then the [HLa+ ] at max is suppressed (it should be the same if not higher).

Lactate also is an indicator of glycogen usage since lactate comes from glycogen (glucose) as its substrate.

I would say lactate is an indirect measure of intensity with several factors that can influence it. However, if one is consistent in testing, it can be a way to assess training although the ultimate way is by racing.

Luv2Run,

glycogen storage variability aside,

dont you think its good to have a nice round number like 4mmols of lactate, on which to base our assumptions as the average anaerobic threshold in middle and long distance athletes?

That is a good idea, but it is easier said than done. For me, I continue to think that what I know today will not be as much as tomorrow. I also think that I don't have a big name and what publishing company would want my books if I don't coach Olympians? I have coached many people who have either competed on the national level or at the Olympic Trials, but few of those people I coached on a day to day basis, rather as an advisor or someone (often) in the shadows. Many have a regular school or club coach, but secretly seek advise from someone who can give them real answers they are not getting. There are coaches that use my training plans and pace charts, but they pretend that they came up with those formulae. They give no credit to their originator/creator and let the athletes, parents, and alumni believe that they are the real reason for success. It bothers me a lot, sometimes. I just want an ethical, fair world but it won't happen. A great example of another coach who gets shafted all the time is Jack Daniels. How many coaches out there use his workouts and make everyone think that they orginated the master plan? I can think of one renowned doctor who has started and sustained his career of someone else's discoveries and plans: David Martin. I recall distinctly sitting in a coaches meeting at a National XC Championship in New York and someone started raving about David Martin. If you could see the look in Jack's eyes, a very passive man by nature, you would have said that someone set his seat on fire. He only mumbled to me his contempt for the scoundrel. He did not have to because I already knew that Martin was making a name for himself by using Jack's research, Jack's training paces, and ingratiating himself to the higher-ups in the USOC. Later Martin furthered his fame by getting ahold of Seb Coe and asking him to stop at his lab for testing, all the while knowing that he could make the world think the name David Martin is synonymous with coaching of world class athletes. The above was a dream I had, so I won't remember it actually happening if I go to court. Other than my beautiful wife and dong, Nike, I don't have anything valuable anyway, so I guess it would be futile to sue me.

Not really. However, if you use 4 mmol as a standard for comparison then it has an accuracy probability of greater than .90 for predicting performance changes in competitions (see Lactate.com for more information or order their software which outlines all the heavy duty research on the subject). Even for people like Al Salazar who could only produce about 5 mmols of peak lactate when incrementally tested during his peak racing years could have used 4 mmols as a comparitive tool to evaluate training effectiveness. As long as the peak lactate reached 5 mmols on subsequent tests and the peak workloads at 5 mmols were similar, then improvements for the velocity at which 4 mmol was achieved would strongly indicate improved fitness and probable improved race performances. You could use 3 mmols if you wanted to really and have similar results, I think. We typically refer to 4 mmols because of the original resaerch published by standout scientists such as Doctors Mader, Madsen, Hollman, Sjodin, etc. Their research showed that the majority of endurance atheletes, especially swimmers, were showing a quick rise in plasma lactate at 2 mmols and then later at about 4 mmols. So, they used that as a standard for measuring progress, fitness, and fatigue. As I mentioned, more recent research (per Dr. Olbrecht) shows that peak lactate is a huge factor too in determining whether reductions in recorded plasma lactate at a workload really show improved fitness for competing, so keep that in mind.

The above should read "..other than my beautiful wife and dog, Nike, (she is a Boston Terrier and runs with us)..." She is awesome!

tinman,

yeah i know what you mean about David Martin. that Seb Coe he was a bastard too, used to win all the time, all ingratiating smiles and charm before and after, but once he was on the track he just had no respect for other peoples hard work and reputation. the bugger he just had to win didnt he? the fkn little shit. couldn't stand him meself, the darling of the crowd, give me a break, all the athletes hated him. too ambitious you see. why did he have to win all the time? couldn't he have let others have the odd win now and again. thank GOD for Steve Ovett, now he was really a runners runner. Ovett didn't go in for all this lactate testing vo2 max rubbish, he just trained bastard hard. smashing bloke he was too.

shall we publish this stuff before someone else nicks it then tinman. i will help you to edit it.we wont make any money out of it. but we can do it for the love of the sport we can sell it at races to those who really know who you and Jack are :-)

Tinman...I'm waiting for the crying to begin. You mean to tell me someone stole another coaches ideas or based a training plan on another's pace charts/plans and called them their own?!!! I'm aghast...I thought every self-respecting coach developed all their own ideas entirely independently as I'm certain you did...and to think that David Martin stole all his stuff and got famous by having Seb Coe stop by for a cup of coffee and a test or two. What is it like to be the "missing link" of so much training knowledge---the one person who can pull it all together for us and show us how it all began?

Sorry to be raining on your parade---you are obviously very knowlegeable---but portraying yourself as a shadowy figure who secretly gives out advice to those seeking the truth in training does little to increase anything other than your own self-esteem.

...and did you really name your dong, Nike?...sorry couldn't resist.

tinman and jtupper-

thanks for the continual conversation regarding training paces, o2 deficit, etc.

while most of your training suggestions have been for marathoning, how would you adjust to prepare for 10Ks? obviously the need for speed is even more crucial, but development of aerobic capacity is still very important.

also, can you explain what you first mentioned on the first page of this thread concerning 5K/.95-- and something about 45min?? was this determining a pace to be run for 45mins to more efficiently develop LT?

also, great points about "LT", i agree this term seems to be bantered around as some exact point, when clearly the numerous definitions floating around really hit the point that it isn't something we can just pinpoint exactly.

thanks.

found the paper by Peronnet and Thibault:

Journal de Physiologie (Paris). 1987;82(1):52-60

unfortunately it appears to be in french and haven't been able to access the article online ... not that i'd know what to do with it even if i did find it since i don't speak french!

The difference between proper 10k training and that of marathoning are not substantially different. To be successful at both, you need to put in enough mileage, do enough tempo runs at paces that are just slower than 10k pace, do long intervals at close to race pace, do some max VO2 training, improve running economy at racing pace, and just enough speed to never worry about not having enough to surge or kick.

For the 10k, I think you will find that once you establish a strong weekly or bi-weekly schedule of mileage and long runs at modest paces, the most importan to types of training you can do are threshold type workouts and intervals at improve aerobic power (5k pace down to 2k pace). If you didn't have time to do everything, just run reps at your current 10k pace plus or minus 5-10 seconds with sufficient jogs to get in enough reps to run at least 200 minutes per workout. Literally, I think that a person can reach about 90-95% of maximum 10k ability if they did the mileage and the long interval workouts close to race pace in enough volume. I emphasize long intervals because too many people, I think do shorter intervals at faster paces but find they stalemate in progress despite the repetition times improving. You simply can't fake improvements with long reps. If your previous 4 x 2km workout was at 80 seconds per 400m with 400m slow jogs between at 85% effort and now you can run 77-78 with the same effort, then you can be confident that your ready to run a faster 10km race. On the other hand, if you started doing 800s at 80 second pace and in a matter of 4 weeks you are running 75s, I am certain that you are not going to run a bunch faster in a 10km race. Your speed has improved, but that doesn't usually corrlate to significant changes in 10k performance like the improved times on long reps do. Ideally, you want to balance faster reps of modest distance with not quite as fast reps that are longer. I really don't think you can go wrong alternating 1000s or 1200s as 3k-5k pace with 1500-2000s at 8km to 10km pace.

I think that you also could really have outstanding transtional training success with doing workouts that put you at a pace that would take you about 45 minutes to do in a race, which is just a bit faster than LT pace; slightly faster than LT is better at improving LT than actual LT training.

tinman,

respectfully i have to disagree with your assertion that 4mmols can only have a 90% reliability in predicting performance.

As long as we accept 4mmols as an average figure we dont need to worry whether it applies to everyone all the time.

its good to use this figure to help simplify definitions.we always need to keep simplifying our explanations every time we make new discoveries, so we dont confuse each other.

it depends on the judgement of the person who is making the prediction. if you know an athletes figures for velocity at 2mmols and 4mmols and up to max lactate values or whatever the athlete decides is their max intensity for each test, then these figures can determine race pace with more than 99% accuracy. This is how our freind Renato Canova tests his athletes.

we can predict any distance pace given the right information. when Salazar could only reach 5mmols max, all that means is that that was his max at that particular time

he would have raced at 2 - 2.5 mmols in the marathon.

please dont worry about my satire in my previous post, this is only a messageboard, we mustn't take ourselves too seriously.

cheers JonnyO

LaWoof wrote:

I've been tossing around the idea of doing marathon distance workouts. Obvously one cant run 26.2 at MP each week or even every other. What would you science guys think of a workout that is say 4x10k at goal MP with a bunch of rest. something like 30-60 minutes. Would you achive similar results that the 1500m guys do with 200's as far as race performance?

LaWoof,

i dont think i could handle that, how about 4x8k at goal MP with 5 mins jog? I might try that one in a few weeks time.

during the jog i will drink a malto dextrin energy booster as i will in my next marathon. i find these drinks to be wonderfully effective in providing sustained enery and a postitive mental boost.

I'll weigh in on a couple of things...

#1- The 10k is of course much more of a balancing act so to speak between a high LT (or whatever we want to call it) and solid VO2max to achieve racing success and improved performance. You need a good approach to training both aspects.

Many coaches merely ascribe VO2Max intensities to a workout and call it aerobic capacity...I believe they are slightly different. Aerobic capacity should be more like 3k race pace or slightly faster than 5k (10 -12 seconds per mile faster). VO2max would be faster than this by 8-10 seconds per mile. I have good success and improvement with athletes who use the following workout (as an example)

5-6 x 800 meters at 5k down to 3k pace with a 200 jog in less than 90 seconds and as fast as 60 seconds.

A 19:00/40:00 girl 5k/10k runner would run the first 800 @ 3:03 and try to work down to as fast as 2:56 attempting to keep the jog recovery as consistent as possible. The idea is to then "compress" the workout as it is attempted throughout the training schedule--That is complete it in less total time by running faster 800's as well as quicker recovery jogs.

#2- You asked about the idea of 45 minutes at 5k/.95 as a means to improve LT...this is tinman's "critical velocity" I believe is what he called it...It has long been established that devoting a portion of training to a speed equating to 15k pace is a good tool for developing LT...for world class athletes this would be somewhere in the 45 minute range...but not for me or you. Tinman's 5k/.95 seems pretty fast to devote 45 minutes of running to. My 19/40 gal from above would be asked to go at a 6:25/mile pace which is faster than what she could be expected to run for a 15k race...so I think tinman expects too much there. I know one German study said that 35 to 40 minutes was the upper limit for this training. My experience has been that athletes respond well with 25 minutes and on up to 30 ---not world class athletes, mind you.

I use a series of 4 different LT workouts over the course of a training cycle that incorporate both longer running and longer intervals...have to go, let me know if you are interested in some of the workouts we incorporate for the 10k

historybuff -

yes i'd love to hear about the LT workouts, always interested in finding new workouts.

i'm finishing up my collegiate eligibility this spring and will be focusing on the 10k. i think the last three years of my training has been focused on too much speed and has caused me to 1)not fully develop my vo2max and 2)burn me out by the end of the season ... but my speed for the last 600 has been developed quite a bit (surprise surprise). (note: i'm an exercise phys undergrad and tested to a 67 vo2max last march ... coaches changed at the end of last season, i bumped up my mileage and retested about a month ago and hit a plateau at 77.5ish for a full minute). now i'm running about 80-90M on singles with a very similar pattern of workouts as joe rubio outlined above and am finding much success (feeling very vit, recoverying well, etc). i've run in the mid 14:20s and 30:20 on the track, but all in conditions where i feel i was undertrained. looking for huge improvements this spring.

thanks for all the help.

tinman wrote:

Post your email and I will respond. I am sure we can give you a few tips. I advise many people and have fun doing it. I don't always have time, but I will respond within 2-3 days usually.

If you chose not to send your email, that is ok. Just ask some questions on letsrun.com and I will answer them that way. Remember, my three weeks of vacation are soon to end, so get the questions going soon. I won't have the internet after Friday since I will be on assignment for my company. Maybe I can go to a public library once or twice per week.

tinman.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS

you have posted a huge amount of excellent information to us all.

I really feel that this information should be collected in some way. i understand letsrun.com owns the copyright for this information. if it is to be edited and bound together then it could be and should be published with letsrun.com as the owners of the copyright.

alternatively it could be rewritten by yourself with someone else perhaps helping you to edit it.

whatever happens all the information should not just slip down the message boards into obscurity. i would like to assist in editing the material without any finacial reward.

JonnyO

I probably won't be on letsrun.com much for the next few weeks. I will be away on business. To an extent is has been enjoyable contributing here. I do feel that exchanges about training are good for the sport because advancements can be made. I am fond of those who are appreciative of my efforts. It is a pleasure to know that people are intrigued by all the nuances of our sport. Regarding training books, I would be interested in putting together something for sale. I want to get a doctorate of physical therapy degree which would take three years of full-time study. I also need to take a bunch of chem, physics, and physiology type courses because all my graduate physiology coursework is more than 10 years old, so it may take me 4 years to finish the DPT degree. Any profits from the book(s) would help pay for school.

Johny O, if you are someone else wants to work with me, I will appreciate the help.

In order to focus my energies, I wll have to figure out who to write the book for. Do I make it for club level runners? National class? High schoolers? Women or Men? What one or two groups want workouts the most? I don't know the answer, so this where input comes in. Because I will be working full time and taking chemistry and physics courses on the side for the next few months, I am disinclined to go into depth about physiology and research topics related to training, though it is an interest of mine.Most likely, I would create templates in the book for athletes to use as well as provide charts and sample schedules. I will list what I think are good workouts to do and how to adjust the workouts according to natural speed vs endurance and type of events. Any input would be appreciated. I will post a new email for input in a few minutes.

My new email address is runfastcoach.com

Feel free to send questions or positive comments.

Thank you. Sincerely, Tinman

JonnnyOOoo,

I had one of my women do 4 x 5 miles this fall with great results. Other times a straight 25K at Mth pace, or a track workout of 4 x 2 miles @ 5K pace + 45sec to one minute. I will do more 4 x 5 miles in the future BUT only for 3 workouts prior to the big race.

Thanks,

jzs

That is runfast@hotmail.com. If I make a profit, I have decided to donate 10% of profits to the American Cancer Society. I lost my mom and grandpa recently to cancer.