NCAA Division II West Regionals San Diego, CA

They just stopped it up front and it just spread on back down the line and people just stopped (and many started cursing)

Then about 10 minutes after they stopped it, they had a coaches meeting and then after awhile, they said they were gonna start it in two hours.

Which coach has more class????

http://www.chicowildcats.com/news/2008/11/8/MXC_1108082851.aspx

http://www.adn.com/sports/story/583512.html

If there have been that many Katrinas at UCSD XC events, then it sounds like its the race director and crew's problem. I don't know if the UCSD Athletic Department is in charge, or if they have the local USATF people in charge, but coaches need to get to the bottom of this abortion that's for sure. The situation with officials is that many are elderly and some I'm afraid are too senile. Some spend too much time socializing and bucking up to get picked for the top races and meets. I have heard for years they must stay hush, not make waves, and make their superiors look good else they don't get picked for the big races championship meets.

which coach has more passion?

The biggest problem is that it's a different crew working the venue each time, and the course is confusing enough that you really need to run the thing a few times before you can become 100% comfortable with directing runners (which is, in theory, the level of comfort that EVERY course official should have).

There is, however, one ultimate failsafe, and that's supposed to be the biker...

one of the things they teach aircraft pilots is that there is rarely an accident when one thing goes wrong. when an accident occurs it's always two or more things failing at the same time. i'm sure in this case everyone on the crew thought that someone else had that turn covered. perhaps the biker thought so too, but got confused or was misdirected. was there one biker, or several ? was there an ATV or a dirt motorcycle on the course too ? was the biker a runner ? a cross country runner ? did the biker know the course ? i recall once at the Carlsbad 5K the lead biker was a gorgeous female triathlete who may or may not know cross running. fans have video and point-and-shoots and want to get their kids pictures. when one fan creeps over onto the course the others start creeping too. the main point is that this mishap should be investigated since it has happened several times recently over the years.

also, from my experience, when something goes wrong the officials clamp down on those who are not at fault, because they don't want to punish their fellow officials who they rightly see as teammates. instead usatf clamp down on the crews, media, and athletes. case in point, the hammer at hayward field. when a local oregon-base official got wrapped by the hammer cable, then sued tom jordan/pre classic, the crews and media were punished in subsequent years and were barred from the field, the media can no longer have good camera positions for the hammer. in 2005 an official in his 70's died at home depot at the usa nationals warmup friday afternoon practice after being struck in the head by a 16 pound shot. he had alzheimers, the california dmv had taken his drivers license away, yet usatf let him on the field that practice day. the next day, the crews and media were pruned to a minimum, but, usatf did not barr senile officials nor officials that are very elderly, shielding their own.

i need the names of those officials for my cabinet. it's only fair that the faster, stronger runners must run further. patriotic even...

one suggestion is to always have an open race as the 1st race on any day of cross country to work out the bugs and to give the elderly usatf officials and volunteers a chance to wake up !

Which coach had to wait 30 minutes for an ambulance to come while one of his athletes was suffering from heat problems???? It was horrible. You could see the entire Anchorage team gathered around their guy who passed out while many other athletes and spectators were watching on. It took forever for the fire truck and then the ambulance to come. At least after reading this article I can see that he is okay.

When I read the quote of the day, I thought to myself, 'wow that really sounds like it might be UCSD!'

I ran on those trails every day for the two years I was there for grad school and ran in the Triton Invite in 2006 and 2007. I second all the motions to never have another championship meet there again (10 years isn't enough IMO). The course is awful, WAY too narrow, confusing, and obviously poorly run by meet officials. I'm no fan of Rupp Certification, but that course just plain old sucks. Sharp turns at the bottom of very steep hills, lots of sand, and extreme difficulty in passing after the first mile. Cross Country courses should be hard, not annoying.

That video is great of the first race. It helped show that the 3 teams that made nationals in the second race would have probably done the same in the first race. Each had 5 in the top 22 with no other school having more than 2. The 2 individual qualifiers were off but at least the St Martin's guy made it. It sucks for the Seattle Pacific guy who was the first to miss as he was in position in the first race.

Position and time back from leader

1. WWU #1-leading

2. Bauhs Chico #1 - 8 seconds back

3. AA #1 - 9 seconds back

4. AA #2 - 20 seconds back

5. AA #3 - 20 seconds back

6. Chico #2 - 20 seconds back

7. AA #4 - 20 seconds back

8. SPU #1 -21 seconds back

9. WWU #2 - 21 seconds back

10. AA #5 - 21 seconds back

11. St. Martin's #1 - 23 seconds back

12. UCSD #1 - 23 seconds back

13. Pomona #1 - 25 seconds back

14. UCSD #2 - 25 seconds back

15. Chico #3 - 25 seconds back

16. WWU #3 - 30 seconds back

17. WWU #4 - 31 seconds back

18. Chico #4 - 31 seconds back

19. Chico #5 - 31 seconds back

20. Chico #6 - 32 seconds back

21. Chico #7 - 32 seconds back

22. WWU #5 - 32 seconds back

Scores at mistake

AA - 3,4,5,7,10 = 29

Chico-2,6,15,18,19,20 = 60

WWU - 1,9,16,17,22 = 65

I was surprised that AA had as much of a time gap on Chico. 10 seconds is a lot less than 2 miles into a race.

Position 1 - Chico up 1 second

Position 2 - even (AA guy ahead)

Position 3 - AA up 5 seconds

Position 4 - AA up 11 seconds

Position 5 - AA up 10 seconds

Chico probably would have still won but it would have been a lot closer. The video shows AA up front again in the second race which probably was a mistake after going hard in the first one. The chico 2 from the first race faded in the second race too like the AA guys.

Typo that does not impact score. The 6th man for Chico was left in the list of scores but it wasn't added into their total. They still were at 60 at that point.

The UCSD course has had its fair share of mishaps in the past - but I know this new 6k/10k course layout had been run only twice previously (Triton Invite 07, Triton Invite 08) and both without mishap.

While I wasn't there, I have run that turn hundreds of times, and know that if it is marked correctly, it is a 100% unmistakable turn. On the other hand, if there were fans lining the course on Right/Left sides (which shouldn't have happened unless flags were incorrect/missing), I would have a hard time knowing that was the turn until about 20m too late, especially under race conditions when you are more worried about the guy next to you than where you are going.

I think its clear that something went horribly wrong at that intersection, but I do not think it was a result of poor planning or "incompetence" - it was a result of a mistake (or a series of mistakes). Someone either didn't string the flags correctly, or someone wasn't there to control the crowd, etc. etc. One of the rumors I even heard involved that the flags had been strung the day before (for pre-race), and the teams arrived on race day to find all the flags cut during the night - maybe that set at the crossroads was overlooked and not fixed prior to race start, or fixed improperly by someone else, etc. etc. ....

Bottom line - I think a glaring error was made - but that it may be attributable to MANY factors, and with all the rumors flying around on raceday, I wouldn't even venture to come up with the single reason it went wrong.

MA wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

I think it was in 1986 that the NE D-II Regional Men's race was similarly disrupted. It was hosted by Philly Textile at Fairmount Park and the top 40 or so were sent the wrong way. The results were voided. They did not re-run it, choosing instead to have a committee select all of the qualifying teams and individuals

Actually, it was Mid-Atlantic Region, not NE.[/quote]

The region was combined in those days, NE and Mid-Atlantic.

And yes, you have it correct.

It all worked out. They did not run the race again, they just sent the best teams as known. It may be they sent a 3rd team as well, not sure.

I was in the front group, we(the top 40 or so) ran about 7.5 miles or so, and finished the race, obviously well back.

The top two team in the region were pretty clear anyhow, I think it was individuals that may have qualified that got screwed. Guys that train hard but under the radar in mid-season then come alive when it counts.

Three things, Hanging Out: Which team was most adversely affected by the heat? Does it snow much in Chico, California in October? Would you be pissed if your team, that was used to running in very cold temperatures had to run not one, but one and a half races in relatively scorching temperatures because of somebody's incompetence?

Here's another Anchorage Daily News article illustrating this point:

You may not open it so I'll give the pertinent info: "With an average temperature of 29.7 degrees, October landed a spot in history as one of the 10 coldest out of the roughly 90 years since records have been kept in Anchorage."

Now Chico, Ca's average temperature is about 64 degrees--hm, so maybe their runners could better handle the heat of Sand Diego. I don't know--you're the expert here.

Secondly, in addition to climatology, you also appear to be an expert at identifying context. The Chico State coach was speaking for a press release, while the UAA coach was speaking for a local newspaper. I don't know if you're familiar how athletic team press releases work, but they tend to put the team in the best possible light whatever the truth may be--e.g.: "U. of X Places Top 30 in Cross Country Regional Race" as opposed to "U. of X Finishes Season One Spot Away From Dead Last."

Maybe the Chico State athletic dept. censored every other word the coach said and translated his stream of unprintable swearing into a gracious acknowledgment of human error. They would be entitled to do that since that is kind of their job. The hard-working folks at the Anchorage paper generally have to print the truth because their job is not to sell a school, but to sell a newspaper.

Thirdly, were the UCSD coaches and staff not "idiots"? You have to admire their commitment to squeezing 10k out of a remarkably small area. But their intelligence does not match their determination it seems.

Perhaps, Hanging Out, you feel some empathy for the UCSD staff after their idiotic yet human mistake because you too are an idiot. And therefore in your mind the UAA coach has less class than the Chico St. coach. But others might disagree.

Which coach is not afraid to tell people that this race was poorly organized, instead of sugar coating it and then bragging about his team?

At least the Anchorage coach recognized that the top three teams that showed themselves during the season ending up qualifying and maybe the top 15 would have been different (SPU, Chico, Cal Poly, etc...). That shows class. Chico coach never gave a mention of respect to the other teams.

Looks like the race course error was just the tip of the iceberg and certainly not life threatening. The Anchorage runner passes out and it took nearly 30 minutes to get adequate medical help to him? No real medical at the finish?????

Come on, saying that they had bad meet management is going very light when you think of the serious situation that the Anchorage runner was going through.

Bad Idea wrote:

simple wrote:

Look, if the men can't memorize a course this simple, it's their own fault.

http://www.ucsdtritons.com/pics11/800/ZJ/ZJJXQNBYLSMALUQ.20081002195309.jpg?DB_OEM_ID=5800

I just TRIED to read that map. It is the most confusing thing I've ever seen. It's got the ABCD going for it, but then it is all split differently every mile. My favorite is the last 1.2: E-F-N-O-H-I-J-K-L-P-Q. No wonder this thing got all screwed up, none of the staff could probably even understand the course map. I think the person who came up with the course and whoever approved it are in big part the people blame.

Wow G to H looks like a brutal turn 90+ degrees.

I'm not really sure how the Chico coach sugar coated it. He just acknowledged that they (UCSD) made a mistake without going so far as to go on public record as calling the meet directors 'idiots'. Friess and the AA crew have every right to be upset and to be critical of meet management. Unless they are perfect themselves though, they should leave out the name calling (at least on record).

If you want to talk about the heat,it's pretty obvious AA suffered from the heat, but they made it to nats and should have their chance to shine there.

As far as the meet directors go, they should stop any and all blaming of fans or runners for this mishap. If the fans were in the way, then it is the fault of the meet management for not keeping them out of the way. Even on a clearly marked course, there should be people stationed at crucial points (e.g. TURNS) to insure that runners make those turns at the appropriate time point.

UCSD should accept responsibility for making a mistake and apologize to all of the runners. That is the bottom line as I see it.