Hey Everybody, Minimalism WORKS!

branderson wrote:

I'm curious, how many of you have tried barefoot running?

To what degree and how successful(or not) was it? Perhaps I missed something but I didn't see anyone claim that they tried it and became injured as a result.

Okay, I'll bite. I have been injured twice from running barefoot. The first time I tried to do too much, too soon, but most recently I was injured even while incorporating a barefoot regime very conservatively.

This injury was a fourth-metatarsal sf. I was in good shape, increasing my barefoot running in two ways: doing part of my cool-down barefoot jogging on grass, and doing most of my post-run strides barefoot on grass as well.

Medical specialists who looked at me told me that the reason it doesn't work for me is that my fifth metatarsal is stunted, which is visually evident when anyone sees my retarded little toe on that foot - that puts twice as much stress on the fourth metatarsal as it should take, apparently. So I, who advocate barefoot running and pretty much buy into the whole concept of minimalism, am forced to adopt the antithesis: orthotics.

To branderson: you did acknowledge that your experience might not translate to everyone else, so I'm not disputing that, just giving you feedback for your question. Barefoot running sounds great, but apparently it just doesn't work for everyone. And I should say that while my foot structure limits its performance, it's not drastically malformed or anything - I'm sure there are many others like me with something similar.

Go look at the orginal Waffle Trainer. Compare to shoes of today. Hell, even compare it to other early Nike shoes like the Elite or LD 1000.

Basically, shoes that are "flatter" allow your foot to land more toward the midfoot/forefoot, where the foot is designed to land. High heels make the foot land on the heel. The foot is designed to land on the heel only while walking, ie: low impact.

Alan

Wrong.

Why is the heel built up with so much extra padding? That is where the body intends to dissipate the most FORCE.

When does the most FORCE happen? Running.

If running is a biologically ingrained motion for us, why is the heel so built up for such high FORCE impact? Because that is where you land while running most.

I'm a midfoot striker to toe runner as a former 800m guy, but I still use the heel cushion on my shoes on long runs.

Listen, i know mulitiple guys from my college team and even Olympic Trials competitors (marathon & distance on the track) that need motion control shoes and orthotics. Just because you are a life-long runner, doesn't mean you can adopt barefoot running. It isn't for everyone. I live in a heavily paved area in FL and my ONLY option is to run on roads. I will not be running barefoot anytime soon. And my friends living in OR and CO that are elite runners with pronation issues and orthotics will not be running barefoot, despite what you would assume a natural disposition for it. Your statements are broad and sweeping and largely incorrect. And to the guy who trained in minimalist shoes his whole career: no sh!t you're having issues. You were probably in the Bill Rodger's school of thought and ran 140 mpw in flats. Knees are a little creaky lately aren't they? Of course they are! That is where running ages people terribly. Runners from the 70's and early 80's running in flats all the time are just about to be in walkers.

ps: you're all douches

Funny,

Consider that saying "wrong" and "it isn't for everyone" (implying that it could be for some) will at the very least appear contradictory.

If you can only run on paved roads i agree that you will not be running barefoot anytime soon. And soon is a rather subjective time unit. But what? You don't even have a football field, a small park, a trail, nothing at all but concrete?

Minimalism and barefoot running is working very well for me. I did not feel totally succesful when i started. And i still don't. It ultimately feels like a learning process. With the possibility of positive experiences along the way. I have been injured, but minimalism was not the problem. Although, as i have stated before it would have been really easy, and reassuring to blame minimalism instead of my distraction.

So onward we go

I had a great barefoot workout today (see DYRT II thread if interested) and could have gone faster (easily 5 maybe 10%) with less recovery, but i liked the idea of sticking with the other runners and helping each other.

I like the way you are so defensive about the issue: it sounds like you are genuinely concerned about people's health.

However, your use of the word duche is linguistically way too minimal. Regards.

my use of the word "Wrong" was in reference to the argument posed in the prior post about the biomechanics of the heel and what the body's natural purpose for it is: a cushion for impact. This leads us to deduce that a heel is most commonly used to dissipate the greatest amount of energy and force upon impact, and that would of course happen while running.

I do not have a single solid circuit where I could run more than 400 meters of soft surfaces. Florida is one of the least runner friendly states I have ever been in my life. i have seen less than 5 rubberized tracks in my entire county, and have to do all of my track sessions on an asphalt track (either of my choosing). I'm not running around a football field for 12 miles, thank you very much, and there is one trail in my county and it is 2.5 miles long and it is sand.

I will go as far as recommending a lightweight trainer for people, but at the end of the day, there are too many different foot types to say that running barefoot is good for anyone. What about overweight people with neutral gaits, what about 95 lbs girls with severe pronation issues that necessitate orthotics and stability shoes? These are two easy examples of people who can't run barefoot, or really even minimalist.

That being said, I still think you're all douches. Please forgive my curt response, I hope you understand.

Funny,

ok got ya on the Wrong.

But wait: nobody is saying, at least i am not saying running barefoot is good for anyone. And you just wrote that again.

Your cases are close enough to the edge that i wonder why you didn't include the visually impaired as not being ideal barefooters.

Of course i understand your point of view. As I meant previously, it sounds like it want to be SAFE. And safe is good. But overly/exaggerrated-ly safe?

Is this mood dictated by the runner unfriendliness of the state you are residing in right now?

Time to write to the ol' congressman...there's a lot of runners out there and numbers are increasing...

Re. 12 miles on the football field. Agree no. But 45 minutes of Kenyo-floridian diagonals, why not?

Cheer up possible? Endorphines stop working for you?

Thank goodness for your wisdom and insight, what would everyone do without it?

Everyone on here is a douche? Well thank you for posting on this thread, it brought some semblance of "coolness" that was much needed.

The hardness of the surface has nothing to do with this discussion. Once someone truly adapts to running properly in minimalist footwear, the body will adjust naturally to any surface that is being run on.

(^_^) <--------------WTF????

[___]

[___]

(^_^) <--------------WTF????

[___]

[___]

Thanks, funny, for helping lay the foundation for a more rigorous classification here. Based on your own observations we can safely recommend:

minimalism: douches

maximalism: fatties, little girls with pathologically bad biomechanics

That's a start, even if it doesn't yet address the entire running population.

Since I've posted to this thread, I'm a douche and will therefore stick with the minimalism which has served me quite well. Good to know there's a scientific basis for it!

But I thought a lot of the posts in this thread were saying that pronation is CAUSED by the elevated heel?

And something about the knee problmes.

When you run in trainers, you most likely land on your heels. That is why your knees hurt. From what I understand, (and I'm not claming to be an expert) when you land on your heels, your knees and your shins have to absorb all the impact.

If you were landing correctly and in flats, your calf muscle would absorb all of the impact, all the FORCE.

I really think heel-striking causes most injuries and this is a result of the elevated heel (pretty much all trainers).

And that is a very interesting point brought up by someone about a lawsuit filed to shoe companies. There have been tests showing this. They are causing these injuries and they are the people who influence pronation.

give me a time line for your "successful adaptation" for running in Vibram 5 fingers on asphalt. I personally don't think a guy of 180 lbs (normal weight for a 6'2 guy as myself), should plan on doing as such.

My case of the 95 lb girl is most certainly an outlier, however, a big heavy guy with neutral gait is quite common. If it were an outlier, or excessively rare, why do we have the Dyad, 882, and Shadow? If anything motion control shoes are over-recommended for heavy dudes. But that's beside the point. My point remains, hardness of the surface FACTORS into the discussion. It very much has something to do with the discussion. Minimalism, as these purists like to think of it is vibram fingers and barefoot running. This is simply not a viable option for most of the world's *running* population.

One more thing I forgot to include in my biomechanics example: I live in FL now after growing up in the North (best running in the world). People down here are raised from a very early age on the beach, in sandals and barefoot. I see the wide feet and the sunken arches, but these are people that have no place running or walking around barefoot. Many of them develop real problems with their knees and hips because of alignment issues. Despite their flatter feet, their arches still plummet upon footstrike. These are people that are the ones that really benefit from the features of a soundly-engineered running shoe.

If you land correctly in flats vs. trainers, the impact is still being dissipated by the shoe first, then the knees are incorporated. The Gel, Hydroflow, ProGrid, AdiPrene, Air, etc are used to dissipate force horizontally, rather than vertically as the body would do naturally. The calf doesn't absorb all the force if you land one way vs. another. The knees still get the remainder of the force left from what the shoe doesn't handle. If you are landing on your toes, the calf takes some of the force, but this leaves two things:

1) the ball of the foot has to handle far more than biomechanically built to handle (ie: fragile metatarsals are over exposed)

2) the calves have to exert way more energy to stabilize themselves through prolonged exposure to force. Leading to cramps and early onset of lactic acid and fatigue.

That doesn't of course mention that the tendons in the knee get taxed more than usual as well.

And an elevated heel only causes problems if the midfoot is not supported as the foot needs. If someone needs support, then they need a support system through the midfoot through the forefoot possibly.

The only issue with an elevated heel is that an unsupported foot's natural pronation can accelerate due to a downhill effect. There are many trainers out there with 14-18 toe-to-heel drops. This will not accelerate any pronation, while giving the benefit of cushion.

funny,

My stride is typical of most efficient long distance runners: I land on my midfoot, roll back lightly onto my heel, them roll forward to toe-off. If you run barefoot, this is how you run. Landing heel first is damn near impossible while barefoot. Okay, not impossible, but very uncomfortable and not natural.

What I'm trying to say is that, since I do not land on my heel, why do I need a ton of cushion and "technology" in the heel of my shoes? If anything, the high heel is causing my achilles to shorten and decrease the amount of energy it stores for the eventual toe-off.

Most modern running shoes are built for the heel strike, midoot transition, toe-off style of running. A huge heel for the heel strike, a piece of plastic (or several) and/or a second density midsole for the transition, and more forefoot cushioing for the "forefoot slap" that comes from striking with the heel. I don't run this way, so why should I use shoes that are designed for this purpose?

I understand what you are saying, however I'll answer your question with another question:

Why is our heel developed through thousands of years of evolution to be so padded and built to bear the brunt of force? I'm a forefoot/midfoot striker as well. If you want suggestions from me, I would recommend the Nike Elite, Saucony Tangent and possibly the Mizuno Elixir. However, most people out there that you see running aren't running 6 minute pace for casual 8 milers. They are running 8 minute pace on a good day, and their frames need padding. Even though I wear Tangents, I wouldn't tag myself as a "minimalist". I wear a shoe with an appropriate amount of support and some cushion between myself and the road.

And I even pedobear better than you. Take that weeble-wobble shit back to dyestat.

………………………………………………………………………………………………

………………….._,,-~'''¯¯¯''~-,,…………………………………………………………

………………..,-'' ; ; ;_,,---,,_ ; ;''-,…………………………….._,,,---,,_………………

……………….,' ; ; ;,-' , , , , , '-, ; ;'-,,,,---~~''''''~--,,,_…..,,-~'' ; ; ; ;__;'-,……………

……………….| ; ; ;,' , , , _,,-~'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ¯''~'-,,_ ,,-~'' , , ', ;', …………

……………….', ; ; '-, ,-~'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;''-, , , , , ,' ; |…………

…………………', ; ;,'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;'-, , ,-' ;,-'…………

………………….,'-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;''-' ;,,-'…………..

………………..,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;__ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; '-,'……………..

………………,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-''¯: : ''-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; _ ; ; ; ; ;',……………..

……………..,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;| : : : : : :| ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-''¯: ¯''-, ; ; ;',…………….

…………….,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; '-,_: : _,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; | : : : : : :| ; ; ; |……………

……………,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ¯¯ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;'-,,_ : :,-' ; ; ; ;|……………

…………..,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,,-~'' , , , , ,,,-~~-, , , , _ ; ; ;¯¯ ; ; ; ; ;|................

…………,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,' , , , , , , ,( : : : : :) , , , ,''-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;|................

……….,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;', , , , , , , , ,'~---~'' , , , , , ,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;',…………..

…….,-'' ; _, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ''~-,,,,--~~'''¯'''~-,,_ , ,_,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ',………….

….,-''-~'',-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; | ; ; | . . . . . . ,'; ,''¯ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,_ ; '-,………..

……….,' ; ;,-, ; ;, ; ; ;, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ', ; ;', . "Hey guys, wanna be facebook friends?"...

………,'-~' ,-'-~'' ', ,-' ', ,,- ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ', ; ; '~-,,,-'' ; ,' ; ; ; ; ', ;,-'' ; ', ,-',

……….,-'' ; ; ; ; ; '' ; ; ;'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ''-,,_ ; ; ; _,-' ; ; ; ; ; ;'-'' ; ; ; '' ; ;'-,

……..,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;¯¯''¯ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; , ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;''-,

……,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; |, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; '-,

…..,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;|..'-,_ ; ; ; , ; ; ; ; ; ',

….,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; | ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'…….''',-~' ; ; ; ; ; ,'

…,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;'~-,,,,,--~~''''''~-,, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'…..,-~'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-

…| ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'…,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-'

…', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,'….', ; ; ; ; _,,-''

….', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'…….''~~''¯

…..''-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;_,,-'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-'

………''~-,,_ ; ; ; ; _,,,-~'' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-'

………..| ; ; ;¯¯''''¯ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,,-'

………..', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-'

…………| ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;|

…………', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ~-,,___ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;',

………….', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-'….''-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ',

………..,' '- ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-''……….'-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ',

……….,' ; ;' ; ; ; ; ; ; ,,-'…………….', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;',

………,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,-''…………………''-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; |

……..,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,,-'………………………'', ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; |

……..| ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'…………………………,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;,'

……..| ; ; ; ; ; ; ,'………………………..,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,''

……..| ; ; ; ; ; ;,'……………………….,-' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-'

……..',_ , ; , ;,'……………………….,' ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ,-'

………',,',¯,',''|……………………….| ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; '--,,

………….¯…''………………………..'-, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;''~,,

……………………………………………''-,, ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;''~-,,

………………………………………………..''-, ; ; ; ; ; ,,_ ; ;'-,''-,

…………………………………………………..', ; ; ; ; ; ; '-,__,--.

……………………………………………………'-, ; ; ;,,-~''' , ,|, |

………………………………………………………''~-''_ , , ,,',_/--'

If you're a midfoot/forefoot striker, your heel is not bearing the "brunt of force" as you put it. Your midfoot/forefoot is. Is that hard to understand? The heel provides cushion while walking. Running and walking are very different biomechanically. Ever notice how both of your feet are never in the air at the same time while walking (unless you're a race walker, of course)? The force of impact less while walking than while running.

Most hobby runners (for whom most running shoes are designed) have a running stride that is very close to the walking stride. They will land on the outside edge of their heel, a very small point of impact. This is why the heel needs to be so well cushioned under the shoes: the large amount of force is concentrated in a very small area. When landing on the midfoot or forefoot, the force is spread out over a much wider area, which results in less of a need for high-tech cushioning.

The bear is really impressive, but your argument less so.

Are you sure about this:

"Why is our heel developed through thousands of years of evolution to be so padded and built to bear the brunt of force?"

This sounds like you would advocate obesity as an evolutionary occurrence for increasingly complex personal relationships...

The whole necessity of man being erect and almost exclusively heel-dependent seems to take insufficient consideration of the upright but forefoot/midfoot balanced alternative.

It is very difficult to balance on your heels. And equilibrium in Running seems to me to be a pretty big issue.

First, I really want to congratulate the people who have been posting on this thread. It's been very rare on this site to have a disagreement with someone without massive amounts of arguing.

I respect all of your opinions (funny), I'm just not so sure I agree.

"My stride is typical of most efficient long distance runners: I land on my midfoot, roll back lightly onto my heel, them roll forward to toe-off. If you run barefoot, this is how you run. Landing heel first is damn near impossible while barefoot. Okay, not impossible, but very uncomfortable and not natural.

What I'm trying to say is that, since I do not land on my heel, why do I need a ton of cushion and "technology" in the heel of my shoes? If anything, the high heel is causing my achilles to shorten and decrease the amount of energy it stores for the eventual toe-off.

Most modern running shoes are built for the heel strike, midoot transition, toe-off style of running. A huge heel for the heel strike, a piece of plastic (or several) and/or a second density midsole for the transition, and more forefoot cushioing for the "forefoot slap" that comes from striking with the heel. I don't run this way, so why should I use shoes that are designed for this purpose?"

That is exactly how I feel.

And actually like you, I live in Florida and run on concrete all of the time. That is the one drawback to minimalism, but I feel my form is much better and whatever the surface is, I have adapted to it over the past several years and now I just land even lighter because of it.

If I were to go back to "normal" training shoes, I strongly feel it would make me go back to my old habits of massive heel striking. For the first 18 years of my life, I was running incorrectly and the only way for me to learn how to strike correctly, was without an elevated heel (racing flats).