MITOCHONDRIA QUESTION for phoenix, tinman and others

Bump,

This Thread rocks. I have seen the light.

Johny O:

You asked if there is residual lactate in the muscles over and above the normal resting levels the morning after a race.

Answer: No. Lactatic acid (which us what I think you are referring to) is diminished completely in 3 hours or less, even if you lay still after intense exercise. There is no residual acid in our bodies the next day. There are other disruptions that linger, though. Recall that both muscle fiber ph and blood ph are altered substantially during exhaustive anaerobic lactic work. So, it is likely that blood acidity, especially, will affect other organ systems; neural and endrocrine, in particular, over a longer time than the ciruclatory system. Additionally, fiber membranes may be disruptive, swollen, torn a bit, along with connective tissue due to very intense exercise. So, certainly it is probable to feel stiff the next day. Such stiffness effects are notable when oxygen cost of running is measured (economy). Simply put, when your muscles are stiff, you don't run smoothly and easily which means invariably your oxygen cost will be elevated just to move along at your normal paces. * That is why many coaches suggest that you go for slow running as soon as possible after intense racing or training and do a bunch of slow running frequently in the hours and days that follow to speed recovery. Slow running has regenerative qualities and assists in super-compensation.

By the way, lactic acid is fairly quickly changed (dissociated) to lactate and Hydrogen ions (which causes cellular acidification). Lactate combines with potassium and sodium to form a type of salt and is of NO HARM at all.

wow, always liked a killer workout 10 days before a major race, then taper, wow! now i know why! thanks

I have always hated tapering during college and ran like crap when my coach made me. Now I know why! I still don't taper much and jus go easy the 2 days before a race.

It was so funny since, he would cut the mileage back to like 50% and only do like 400's for the last week, and I would still do a hard morning run on my own time, He was like see my tapering really works for you. HAHA

tinman wrote:

Johny O:

Answer: No. Lactatic acid (which us what I think you are referring to) is diminished completely in 3 hours or less, even if you lay still after intense exercise. There is no residual acid in our bodies the next day.

Wrong. Lactate is constantly being produced and metabolized every day, training or no.

Look closely before you criticize. Johny O asked if lactate was above normal resting values on the subsequent day to a race. The answer is still no. Lactate returns to normal values (around 1 mmol resting) within 3 hours of intense exercise. Period!

I am really sick of people criticizing just because they want to hammer on others or make them look inferior. If this keeps up, I will not be posting anymore. People like thise joker are ruining good exchanges by others and it is getting ridiculous.

my bad. you're making yourself look inferior by over-reacting. on balance you've been educational.

You were wise to get in your morning runs when the coach was tapering your mileage and scheduling hard 400s the week of the big race. Very wise, indeed! Who cares if a runner has speed but no endurance to hold it? How many runners think that fast repetition workouts and low mileage are the answer to peaking and then, after using them, fall apart after 1/3rd of the way through their race? Sad that so many of us have been duped! Those fast 400s with low mileage do erode mitochondrial enzymes which run the cellular oxidation. Every year I watch cross country championship races and shake my head in amazement at the ones who run fast, very fast, early in the races because they feel so strong. Yet, a mile later, they are in severe oxygen debt. They carry the bear on their backs as the yards pass, feeling more and more heavy. If only their "wanted it" more. If only they would "concentrate" more. If only they were mentally tougher. Meanwhile, those sly soles who did not taper out the distance much are waiting and waiting. They know they will catch the tapered runners. They know that the last 1/3rd of the race is their domain. And, soon enough, the bear is too heavy too carry. The pace slows drastically for the tapered runner gets passed so quickly that to an observer it looks like one person is walking and the other is running. Ah, sweet victory for those who know that distance is one's best friend and anaerobic endurance training in the peak phase is just plain gonna fail 8-9 times out of 10!!

tinman were you a red dragon/cortland student ever?

Nope, I never had the pleasure of running for Jack Daniels, extraordinaire. I would have fit in well. I am certain that I would have been a far better runner in my prime; not injured; not under the surgical knife three times; not disgruntled nor disillusioned. I would not have regrets as I do now. Jack is cool cat. I have enormous respect for him.

The only way for me to become more knowledgeable about the sport I loved in which I was not doing well at was to study and study and study. I spent hour upon hour in the university library reading research journal articles while everybody else was out partying. My fun was disecting a good lactate study on swimmers or looking closely through old articles from the early 60s by people way ahead of their time. I looked at swimming research, biking, xc skiing, running, and anything related to applied physiology. If I had to do it all over again, I would have tracked down Jack Daniels and move to New York to be an athlete of his and an assistant afterward. If I had been a little younger and known about him sooner, I would have been running lactate threshold reps before you could wistle Dixie in Cortland. Ah, to dream!

Cheers tinman,

i used the wrong term when i asked about residual lactate, the morning after a hard run.

the point i am trying to establish is that lactate is higher during the days following a race or hard work out.

presumably the lactate curve, as drawn on a graph, shifts to the left of the graph. That is to say, every running pace will show a higher level of lactate.

as we recover over the next few workouts, the lactate curve gradually moves back to the right (on the graph) thus indicating recovery and hopefully improvement.

would this be an accurate description of the results of several tests in the days following a race, if the tests were not too severe i.e. not above above lactate threshold initially in order to encourage recovery?

cheers JonnyO

Just a quick note to say that this is the best thread i've seen here -- nicely done, you guys. Thanks for taking all the time to provide the information.

Also: my mom is totally happy--now she has a bit o' proof and can brag that whatever leg speed her sons have come from her, not my dad....

I can't tell you how incredibly grateful I am of your posts. I have been a victim of some of those false principles in training that you have been talking about. I am a college freshman, and throughout high school I just followed the belief that if I increased my mileage and intensity then I would get better. It worked somewhat but I was injured way to often, I'm talking a minor injury every couple of weeks, and a major injury at least once a year (usually in the transition from cross to indoor track, never made it through a single indoor season)

I have now committed myself to learning how to train smarter, specially now that I have some time off due to a stress fracture.

One question about a statement you made "It is my general observation that lactic acid training ruins economy."

Could you elaborate a little on the meaning of this and specifically what you would define as lactic acid training? As far as how long it causes problems with economy. What would be the benefits of doing lactic acid training. I was thinking that this statement had to do with the question of tapering, but wanted to make sure it wouldn't affect other parts and times of your training.

Johny O:

Lactate curves do plot blood plasma lactate against velcocity or against other variable such as oxygen cost or heart rate. A typical curve looks like a reversed off-ramp on freeways. The magnitude of rise is related to a combination of lactate production, clearance, and shuttling. If the curve of lactate is plotted on the y axis and the velocity of effort run on the x axis, then the position of the curve is related to running skill, conditioning, nutritional status, and protocol for calculating plasma lactate.

Will the curve shift to the left...toward reduced speed...in the days that follow a race or hard workout? Yes in most cases and no in some cases. The efficiency of aerobic metabolism tends to temporarily erode in the 1-5 days after a race or hard workout, so the curve does move to left. A left-shift indicated reduced functional capacity and would presumably result in a slower race time if one had to race again or do another hard workout during the eroded time-frame. There are cases in which the curve shifts to the left but the quantity of lacatate measure at a given percentage of max VO2 is lower. A lower concentration of lactate as a fraction of max VO2 would normally mean improved conditioning, but in cases where glycogen stores are severely reduced, fatty acids are used as energy sources more so to maintain pace. Fatty acids when burned do not result in lactate or lactic acid. So, burning fat at a given percentage of max aerobic capacity will result in lower lactate readings; a false positive, so to speak.

If nutrition is good and depletion was not too severe, then the lactate curve will resume its normal position or move to the right a little if recovery time was not spent just sitting around, but rather doing slower aerobic running in volume, but not excess.

You asked if I would elaborate on the notion that lactic acid training ruins economy.

Economy, as Jack Daniels, expert, will tell you is the measure of oxygen cost for running at submaximal paces. Oxygen cost or economy is the result of skill, fiber makeup (types), conditioning, illness or health, drugs in the blood stream, hormones, mental relaxation or lack of relaxation, and by-products of metabolism such as lactic acid.

Lactic acid training, as mentioned earlier, does cause muscle fiber and blood chemistry to change from equilibrium in proportion to quantity in the body per unit of time. So, if you are jogging along and not producing much lactic acid above resting then your equilibrium is not severely effected, but if you run a fast 400m then your body is wading in lactic acid and your equilibrium is messed up. Quickly your body will try to restore equilibrium by oxidizing lactic acid. The problem with lactic acid training is that it tends to put a person over the edge, so to speak, causing severe acidosis for extended periods of time. As soon as lactic acid rises, economy does too (worsens). Your body simply wants to get rid of the acidosis and speeds up respriatory processes. After running for quite a while in an acidic state, your muscle fibers start to break up their aerobic enzymes and the inner membranes of the mitochondria (aerobic powerhouse of the cell). Neuman and Gohlitz wrote that acidosis in muscle cells (above 7 mmols...or about 8km race pace for the average Joe or Jane runner) reduces mitochondrial oxidation potential by 3-7% immediately. Result? More oxygen is required to run along than before. More oxygen needed (eroded economy) results in loss of performance capacity. Indeed, it is wise to not do lactic acid training in the days just preceding a distance race because economy will not be optimal. Additonally, lactate threshold erodes from too much acidosis. If you goof up your lactate threshold, you goof up economy and you can kiss your goal of peak performance good bye.

Another part of the question, which I think was missed, is WHEN (if ever) is it most appropriate to do lactic acid training?

Tinman,

How does one "oxidize lactic acid"? I've never heard of this!

txnnvt

Wow! I just read most of the posts here. This thread contains so much really good information and so much doubtful info, I'm not really sure where to begin (I'm suprised Phoenix has not chimed in recently on this thread). A word of warning to the casual reader of this thread, be cautious of what you read - alot of training theory is based on clear real life indications and outcomes which work well, but questionable scientific perceptions/justifications.

txnnvt

Since anaerobic enzymes linger in cytoplasm for up to 4 weeks following a solid training period, theoretically you could stop all training that creates lactic acid work a month before your big race. However, I would suggest a simpler solution, just don't do high lactic acid producing training in volume with short rests. So, as an example, instead of doing 10 x 400m at mile pace or faster with 200 jogs in a minute to minute and a half, then just do 4 reps with long recovery jog (say 5-7 minutes). Do fewer reps has less chance of overdoing the balance between aerobic an anaerobic, has less chance of eroding oxidative enzymes in the mitochondria, and with longer reveries your limiting blood ph drops to minimal amounts. Lydiard emphasized this type of training in all his schedules where upon the last 4-6 weeks anaerobic efforts were quick, but with long recoveries and in small volume. The guy may not have been a physiologist, but he was a genius. I think Lydiard referred to research that German scientists did on training the lactic acid system and they found that 4 weeks of lacitc work in high volume was enough to create maximal adaptations. That is one of the reasons that Lydiard said that no more than 4 weeks of gut-busting repetition work was necessary. If I was a distance runner wanting to hone my anaerobic endurance (which really is a small part of distance racing) I would finish my fast reps in high volume about 4 weeks before my peak race and then do 2-3 x 300m fast with long jogs of 5-7 minutes between reps during the last month before the big race.