800 meter training

Thanks, Joe, that is very helpful. When you first posted that, I thought it was at goal race pace, not current pace; that makes much more sense.

How often would you reccommend racing in order to keep getting updated paces?

I don't know where people got this "short" period from...The Kenyan Trials were the 24th and 25th of July and Bruxelles was the 5th of September. That was more LIKE SIX WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!

The first problem is that too many different people said Bungei was sick with this or that. Truth is, most likely he only had a bad flu. He wasn't in the "hospital" for days on end or anything like that. I talked to him as he was driving from his home upcountry and he was coughing and said he felt hot/cold with the chills, etc. I was afraid he was either coming down with malaria, the flu, or at best, a bad cold.

I told him to go to the hospital and get checked for malaria and if it wasn't that, they could at least help him get over whatever he was coming down with.

In Kenya, as soon as someone has a touch of fever, or feels aches, they say they have malaria. Truth is, many Kenyans always have a bit of the malaria bug in them and it flares up from time to time. For this reason, when Bungei came out of the hospital and saw people at the stadium during the WC Trials, he had said he had pneumonia/malaria and so that's when some people/journalists starting writed that he had an attack of malaria, was sick in the hosptial, etc. and people started on this board to wonder how is it possible that someone could come back "sooooooo quickly", etc...

People also forget that he didn't just come back to run 1'42"....He rested roughly a week and then did some easy jogging and strides until the started to feel a bit stronger. He then trained the best he could for a couple of weeks before coming to Europe where he and his coach started doing some specific speed work (but nothing too tough) to gradually get him used to the track and pace again. He skipped Stockholm which he was supposed to run, since he didn't feel strong enough/ready, but when Berlin rolled around he felt 75-80% and felt he needed to give it a try. Also, only with a race in Berlin could he really know how much training/work he need to do to get back to his top form. Berlin and Zurich were nothing special, but he should that he had not lost as much fitness has he had feared. When he finally felt 100% he then went to Davos to train his balls off with Mutua and Justus Koech with their coach, before Bruxelles. From the time he got sick (Trials) until Bruxelles, again there passed roughly SIX weeks. Not the measly 14 days you talk of.

YOu may think what you want and I may or may not be able to change your mind, but I can assure you that Bungei is not taking anything. The IAAF knows where he is and has tested him several times (unannounced as well). Besides this what else can I say to prove it.

Just because the guy is a great talent/athlete and recovered from some sickness doesn't mean he's doped...He works his bullocks off in training. He's already gone through a tough enough life in Kenya (like most Kenyans) so going out a running some hard laps in a piece of cake in comparison.

People wonder if he purposely missed the Trials? You can be sure that his goal is to be there for next year's OG Trials in Nairboi and hopes to make the team. His dream is an Olympic medal (preferibly gold).

Also keep in mind that Bungei doesn't even have the Kenyan record (just missed last year in Rieti) which is 1'42"28... Does that mean that Sammy Kosgei was doped back in '84 when he ran this or just because he ran that fast!? Give me a break

actually, I just re-read your post, so nevermind.

What is the Kosmin test?

Here's the info on the Kosmin test:

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/kosmin.htm

I'm not the coach of Longo, that is called Fabio Scapin. But, as I was responsable of Italian Federation for Methodolgical Research and Experimentation, I know very well what Longo used in his training, beeing connected with all the Italian coaches for discussing training programs and analyzing results of training.

I want also to explain my idea about speed. What is possible to do with 52-53 on 400m ? Of sure, is possible running till about 1:50, depending on personal specific endurance. See the situation of women (and the fact that many used not permitted substances many years ago doesn't change the situation) : in the top position we can find Kratochvilova (1:53.28 and 47.99), Olizarenko (1:53.43 and 52.4, but also 3:56.8), Quirot (1:54.44 and 49.61), Mineyeva (1:54.81 and 51.8), Kazankina (1:54.94 and 53.4, but also 3:52.47 and 8:22.62, and 5th position in 15 km road WCH '87 at 36 years of age), Melinte (1:55.05 and 53.8, but also 3:56.7), Mutola (1:55.19 and 51.53, but also 4:01). Italian record holder Gabriella Dorio, winner in OG '84 in 1500m, has the Italian record with 1:57.66, with a PB of 54.9 on 400.

So, you can understand that, if an athlete like Kemboi (not able running under 50) goes to 800m, of sure can run 1:48 or something less. About Cram, 49.7 is not his PB, but is 48.5, and in any case he never was able running faster than 47.5 in relay.

But not always a big endurance is important for running 800m. We can have athletes very fast in short distances (for ex., 100m in 11.2) and very resistant in long, slow run (able running a marathon in 2:20), that always lose competitions of 800-1500m against athletes less fast (12.0) and less resistant (not longer than 10k in 31:00). So, the difference between the two athletes is their SPECIFIC ENDURANCE. Specific endurance is the percentage of speed that you can use in relation to your max. speed.

If you run 12.0 in 100m, and 52.0 in 400m, your specific endurance (for 400m) is : 12 (100 %) : 13 (pace of 400) = 92,3 %. So, if you run 52.0 (13.0) and 1:52 (14.0), your specific endurance (related to 400m) is 92,9 %.

In relation to the distances 400/800, athletes having a coefficient between 95 and 90 % can be considered "resistant", under 90 % "fast" if are really fast, in other case simply weak....

If you have 95% of coefficient, if you run 52.0, you can run under 1:50. Of course, is something possible to strong athletes of long distances.

If you have 90%, if you run 48 you can run 1:45.2 (and there are many specialists in top lists having this typology).

If you are a long sprinter, having 85% of coefficient, running 46 you run only 1:45.8.

So, your absolute speed is not so important. You must individuate which is the quality that you can increase more. It's a nonsense to spend the most part of your time in training for improve a quality of 1%, forgetting the direction where you can improve of 10%.

At the end, I want to reply to hunh.

I'm really tired to find on this site very stupid persons, frustrated idiots, speaking and running down, slanderers of very poor level that think to know every think and talks about situations that never could test before.

One thing is to have an opinion, that can be right or wrong, but is only an opinion. If you are intelligent, when someone can explain you what you didn't know, you can change opinion, knowing facts.

Another thing is to be unshakable about total stupidities, that have nothing to share with real facts, and that you think because BEFORE KNOWING THE TRUTH you already have your idea. You are an idiot, and like you all people talking about drug without knowing anything.

Thanks Renato.

As for Trackhead:

Trackhead, I try and cut you slack sometimes, but you really are a complete JACKASS when it comes to the mileage issue.

You will take this ?Coe did 90-100 miles a week during base training? crap to your FUCKING GRAVE, won?t you??

A 1000 quotes that say otherwise won?t convince you one iota that you are wrong? Marius telling you that he has Seb Coe?s EXACT training diary in front of him and has talked directly to Seb?s dad and therefore KNOWS that Seb ran about 50-60 miles a week on average won?t convince you? A dozen quotes from Frank Horwill won?t convince you? WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED TO CONVINCE YOU?? I will write to Marius and see if he can get Seb to F?n tell us one way or another. WILL THAT DO IT FOR YOU??

And now, we also have you saying that Jauntonera ran 15 miles a day in base period. Hey, guess what, that too is 90-100 miles a week, huh? Just like that, it?s MAGIC!! Everyone trains the same way, right? WHAT AN F?n JOKE!! FOR THE LOVE OF F?N GOD, GIVE UP YOUR GODDAMNED DOGMA. (Juantonera ran VERY LOW weekly mileage. Fine, he was one-in-a- million, and world-best at 400, but don?t lie about his training)

The below runners and COUNTLESS, COUNTLESS others have had great success at 800 or 1500 (or even above those distances) TRAINING ON MODERATE MILEAGE!!! (AVG of anywhere from 35-60 most of the time). NOT all of them had huge lifetime bases, and not all of them succeeded SOLELY BECAUSE OF THEIR HIGH MILEGAGE TOTALS OVER THEIR BEST YEARs OR OVER THEIR LIVES. THEY SUCCEEDED OFF OF A LOWER MILEAGE, HIGHER QUALITY/POWER REGIMEN.

Cruz

Krummenacker

Juantonara

Coe

Spivey

Lagat

These guys are just the TIP of the iceberg of runners like them. PLEASE give up your mission of convincing the world that every great 800/1500m runner who ever lived succeeded only because they trained 90+ miles a week during base weeks and/or had a HIGH lifetime volume of miles. PLEASE PLEASE PRETTY FUCKING PLEASE.

You are driving us insane.

I guess you didn't read everything I said on Juanterena. Mike Sandrock's book reports that he would go as high as 15 miles in one day. This may have been a rare occasion but that's how it was explained.

I've maintained that Coe averaged 60 mpw annually. There were times when he got up to 90 mpw. I talked with Snell again about 2 weeks ago and he reconfirmed this. Read my conversation with Phoenix.

Let's take out your list:

Cruz -- never said he ran all that long. I don't know enough about him to judge accurately, but for the time being, he was a low mileage guy.

Krummenacker -- spent years before de Oliveria building in background:

Part of what has prepared me to handle the training I do now and to make the transition is the training I did with the other coach. Part of it (is due to) the culmination of years of training and getting ready to handle a little bit of a change, a slightly different training regime.

Juanterena Previously discussed, 44.1 400m runner. As per Renato's post, it doesn't take a lot to get to 1:43.

Coe See the my conversation with Phoenix.

Spivey Everything I've read points to about 75mpw.

Lagat Lifetime background. How much time did he spend on his feet when he was a kid vs. American kids?

now i have my list:

W. Kipketer, Sammy Koskei, Wilfred Bungei, Patrick Ndururi, Japhet Kimutai, Frederick Onyancha, William Yiampoy, Patrick Konchellah - enough lifetime miles to run the 800m really really well. You can put these guys on higher intesnity, lower volume programs because they've been running around since they were 8. Even guys like Wilson, who lived at St. Patrick's, were on their feet all the time! He wasn't sitting on his ass watching MTV.

and to throw a European in there, Bucher had his background @ 10,000m and qualified for the World Junion XC Championships.

I spent a couple of hours talking in person with Joaquim Cruz on his training. He was very gracious, open, and down to earth.

During his base phase he ran 10-11 miles a day in singles 7 days a week. Oliveira told him to run 10, but he usually ran 11. He ran lots of his base at 5:20/mile and only run slower if he was particularly tired. As he approached the pre-competitive period he would often run 4:40 every other mile. So, he was a moderate mileage runner during his base phase at 70-80 miles a week with lots and lots of LT work.

Transitioning out of the base phase he would run large sessions of 100 meter repeats with a very short recovery. He would do this until he could consistenly run the 100s under 12 secs. Only when he could to this would he start doing the typical middle distance workouts.

He always did active recovery doing light plyos and drills in between intervals and sets. He would often run 3 x 4 x 200 with 30 seconds rest between the 200s and 4 minutes rest between sets. At the beginning the 200s would cut down going 27, 26, 25, and 24. When he became really fit he would hit them all in 24.

Cruz did not lift weights but would do high volume sets of hill sprint repetititions "until my legs turned to rubber."

As far as building usable speed. I asked Aouita what to do to build a kick--his kick was incredible. Said said to run multiple sets of 100m sprints uphill, possibly building up to 5-6 sets of 10. He also recommended basic strength training targeting quads, hamstrings, and glutes. He reminded me that speed is useless without speed endurance and said that he used the high volume sets of hill sprints to be able to kick at the end of the race, not just sprint.

Coe is said to have run "millions of hills."

All of this goes back somewhat to an earlier discussion on recruiting fast fibers etc.

I see training as trying to **maximize the percentage of your muscle mass that is functional in your event of choice.** The exhaustive glycogen depleting volume of a top marathoner MAY convert the IIb fibers to IIa fibers that are more FUNCTIONAL at marathon pace as well as hyridizing existing IIa fibers to type I/IIa hybrids.

The exhaustive sets of hill sprints that seem to be in the training program of all top class 800m and 1500m specialist at likely shifting non-functional IIb fibers to IIa/IIb hybrids and IIa fibers that are funtional at MIDDLE DISTANCE races paces, particulary in the gluteal muscles.

At general aerobic conditioning and even threshold paces, the gluteal muscles are not heavily recruited--just because of the biomechanics of the pace. Uphill tempo runs and sets of hill sprints condition muscle groups important for middle distance performance that aren't activated as well on flat terrain. Running 6 x 10 x 100 at 90-95% on a track in spikes would be suicide, but not on hills. You can do this kind of work and not become injured. Uphill tempo runs/intervals activate gluteal muscles for a prolonged time and condition them aerobically, preparing them for repetitive sprint work.

The cell signaling pathways I study are activated by GLYCOGEN DEPLETION. Thus, the greater the volume of work, the greater the signal for mitochondrial biogenesis. Only when the oxidative capacity of the tissue is developed can the very hard aerobic work be done that will maximally stress the heart and the vascular system. As others on this thread have said before, a good training programs is integrating all of these things at all times of the year, just in different proportions.

In no event does the U.S. perform weaker in given our talent pool than in the 800 meters. When you consider the number of athletes who have sub 47 speed and even sub 46 speed - and after you eliminate the 100/200/400 sort - there is no reason why the U.S. shouldn't have a dozen guys running sub 1:45's, with a few 4-5 guys running 1:43 or faster every year.

Fundamentally, it seems to me that our chief problem is bad technical performance on the part of coaches and a failure of intention and resolve on the part of athletes.

Renalto makes some excellent points about the specificity of training, illustrating how to approach development for the demands of a given event. This requires a feel for the event, the athlete, the history of the event, and scientific knowledge to serve as a basis of event preparation. Phoenix made some excellent points using Cruz to illustrate that base work, speed, and speed endurance need to be practiced with an eye to equipping the body to better meet the exact demands of one's primary race.

The 800 meter run can be a race of great success for the U.S. if only coaches and athletes will upgrade their thinking and practices.

Renato,

What types of workouts would you reccomend for a 1500-5k guy for basework for an upcoming track season? I have about 8 weeks for another base phase before I start my competitive season which will last for approximately 15-16 weeks. I put about a 12 week base in before cross and then did long intervals and hills for approximately 9 weeks before a 3 week taper. I am still in pretty good aerobic shape. Would you reccomend tempos/ steady-states, hills, fartleks, short sprints, etc? I have good natural speed for a 1500/5k guy, but I didn't do a whole lot to maintain that speed this fall except for 100 meter strides at about mile race pace. Let me know if there is any other information I should provide. I do drills and weights probably twice a week and will start with more plyometrics soon. I was a low mileage guy for the first 4 years of my running, but now I have increased my mileage and am doing a moderate amount ( avg of 70 mpw). Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

bump

If you save the thread as a bookmark, then you can find it any time and don't need to bump it back up.

15-2:08

16-1:59

17-1:56

18-x

19-1:53

20-1:47

21-1:44

22-1:43

23-1:42

such a progression is a sign for effective training and times like 2:08 at the age of 15 or 1:53 at 19 are not indicators for supertalent, wasn't Kevin Sullivan running 1:52 at the age of 15 or so.

Cram ran under 4min for the mile when he was 16,Coe couldn't even break 4min for 1500m at this age.

i know you can save it as a bookmark, but then people who may not have read it earlier will miss out. i for one didn't read any of it until it was over 70posts and dead for a few days. it was just out of boredom that I was 8 pages back.

this is one of the few worthwhile training threads we've seen in a while.

Renato,

Most Americans involved in athletics will take part in the NCAA college system. They are generally racing 3-4 weekends/month from January through June, with national championships indoors in March and outdoors in June. If they are fast enough to advance to the USATF nationals, they may be racing through July or August, depending on when the Olympics/World Champs may take place. Last year, top collegiate 800m runners ran 3 rounds of 800m at the NCAA Champs and 3 rounds of 800m at the USATF Champs just a week later.

What do you see as the best way to fit proper 800m/middle distance training into this college system?

i want the guide too mr. rubio

bump

im going to be a college freshman at a DI school next year, and i plan to walk on. i ran 1:58 while hurt as a senior (strained hamstring), also a 51.x relay leg. i havent run the mile (the actual mile, not that 1600 crap) since soph year, ran a 4:42 then. would i be better suited for the 1500?