20 somethings not growing up

Mr. Please wrote:

SearchingForFrankSoder wrote:

are you totally devoid of emotion?

Most parents are going to be happier if their kids are happy.

Of course you're going to be pleased if your kids do well and are happy. But looking to others should not be the basis of your happiness. We have 3 children. Two of them are successful and stable. The other unfortunately is not and doesn't seem to be happy either. I have done everything in my power to help him. I brought him up the same as his siblings. In the end, I have to give him responsibility for his success and happiness. It can't come from me, just as mine can't come from him. That doesn't mean that I'm not devoid of emotion as you claim. But I've come to the realization that his life is his to live and I can't live it for him.

I can understand that point of view.

Not sure that I can verbalize my answer the way I need to here but I worry about the stats in this case. Is it possible that battling for the same "higher end" job from the outset is a bad thing for some people? Just like, for some (I would say a lot of people), spending a small fortune on the best universities is not a good thing?

This is probably a bad analogy but I'm pretty sure that those named CEO of a major corporation are going to earn more, and likely a lot more than the 10 other candidates that don't get the job. That doesn't mean that opportunity isn't out there just that those have to placate their expectations just a bit.

Well, that is one potentially sucessful approach, but the potential pitfalls are manifold:

First, the low paying job will likely interfer with the job search. Recruiting, interviews, college job fairs, etc... all take place during working hours, and low paying jobs are not known for there flexibility.

Second, future salary is highly corrolated to salary history (I believe it is the number one predictor). The reason behind this is unclear (probaly has something to do with expectations, personal self confidence), but even when future employers don't know your previous salary, it has still been shown to have a pronounced effect. As an extreme example, former investment bankers who go on to work at non-profits make much more than there coworkers with non-profit backgrounds when one normalizes for education and years of relevant experience (likely because they are used to, expect, and demand more money).

and; Third, the negative self preception attached to working in a low paying profession tends to stick with a person even if they eventually transend that role, and continues to impact their future earnings long after they move on. This is one of those things thats hard really hard to explain, and that I'm sure most people won't buy, but its been statistically demonstrated.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that taking a low paying job while searching for a better one is not an appropriate choice for an individual, but just wanted to point out that there is a reasonable explanation why this decision is not made on a macro scale beyond simple laziness.

This is an interesting discussion to me because I think I fall somewhere right in the middle. My parents paid my tuition to a top school, so I graduated debt-free. Like the kids being described, I did not know what I wanted to do with myself, so I moved home (rent free). Did a couple of jobs that I didn't like and quit, finally deciding to go back to school (locally this time) for my teaching credential. I paid for this myself, but I was still living at home rent-free. I had a job during that time, so I moved to an apartment (got out of the parents' house at 24 years old) with an old high school friend. Now I have a job as a full time teacher and am financially stable. I am trusted at work as someone who works my ass off and even as a first year guy at the school, people ask my opinion before they go to much more veteran teachers. In short, I'm doing a good job at work. Still I am missing some of the living skills that have been referenced in the thread. If you came to my apartment, it is never clean. We live like animal house. I have limited cooking ability (to be generous) and find myself going out to eat all the time. I still end up at my parents' house about once a week for food (I like to say that's family time, but it's also the best meal that I will have during that week).

I think the main reason for this is the mentality that people have had for the last 100 years coupled with the opportunity that has appeared over the last 30. A big piece of the American Dream used to be for parents to make life better for the kids than it was for them. Somewhere this changed to making life easier for their kids, than it was for them. From generation to generation, families' financial situations got a bit better and a bit better, until then the economy grew to a point where family's could basically make things easy for their kids. I don't blame my generation's parents completely because I think that if Their parents and grandparents had been in the same situation, they would have treated their kids the same way (remember also, that many of our grandparents lived through at least a piece of the depression, where our parents have never seen really tough times).

Another contributing factor is that the prevailing opinion used to be that college isn't for everyone. Kids that weren't making it found jobs in trades, which gave them a full-time income right out of high school. These kids would move out of the house much earlier than a college student and had often established themselves as adults by age 22. At that time, the college population would graduate and see all of those "high school idiots" making it in the real world. Who would move back home in that situation? Those kids would have to live up to their abilities and get jobs or else risk being labelled a failure.

Now, college is for everyone who puts in half an effort to try to get there. Trades are looked down upon (which is why they are so in demand and why anyone who is half organized and decently skilled can outearn MOST college graduates) because they are thought to be for lesser caliber people. So everyone's in college, many of whom are obtaining degrees that are essentially useless. Meanwhile, because everyone is in college and graduating at the same time, there is no pressure to get out and get a job right away. We are financially secure enough that we don't have to work right away and the social pressure isn't there nearly as early to urge us in that direction. And let's face it, it's easier not to work. Since we've been trained to take the path of least resistance, why wouldn't it be expected that this would happen? Sorry that I wrote so much. I'm on spring break this week and don't have a whole lot to do.

SearchingForFrankSoder,

I agree on an individual scale, holding out indefinitely for a high paying job is not necessarily a good strategy. For every individual the best course of action will be determined by a complicated combination of factors (access to capital, current socio-economic status, future earning potential, inate intellegence, etc...). I just wanted to point out a valid reason for observable macro trends in the behavior of a large group of people.

Carnegie Mellon 2010 wrote:

I didn't have time to read this tread in detail, but I think a big reason for that a lot of 20 somethings remain at home for so long is student loan debt. College as a whole has really be oversold to American families as the end all be all of moving up in the world. Meanwhile the cost of an education has skyrocketed while starting salaries in many professions have stagnated. Many young people end up with crippling student debt as a result. Its pretty hard to afford your own place when your paying 700-800 dollars per month or more to service student loan debts.

My wife and I were talking about this issue this morning. When my kids were younger, we bought the Texas Tomorrow Fund for each of them. It covered tuition and fees to any public school in Texas. When the Legislature allowed the schools to set their own rate, they had to end the TTF program because the schools were going nuts with their fees and tuition. Admittedly, it's supply and demand; if Texas A&M can get 20,000 applications although they charge some $200 per hour, they can get away with it. In the last 5 years, A&M and UT have raised their tuition rates 40%.

Okay, my kids are covered, but what about those who aren't?

If you're wealthy, it's no big deal because cost usually isn't an issue. If you're poor, your low FAFSA score will get you a cheap education plus you can get a ton of scholarships based on need.

If your family income is between $70-140K, you're screwed in these situations. You're too rich to qualify under FAFSA and too poor to pay for college. When my oldest was getting ready to go to college, I filled out the FAFSA form. The results showed that I was capable of paying 27% of our family's yearly income towards my son's education. I was shocked and had a professional check my form to make sure I hadn't screwed up. I guess the fact that I had two other children (one who will be in college in 2 years as well) and other circumstances didn't matter.

I also agree with the guy who mentioned that maybe the parents are looking to reconnect. If my wife and I want to wrestle naked on the living room floor covered in baby oil, we shouldn't have to worry about one of the kids coming home. There's a visual for those of you about to have dinner. :-) I'm going to be 52 when the last one leaves for college. The wife and I plan to do a lot of things we never had time or money for. If we hadn't had the last child, I'd be two years away from freedom.

When I graduated from college, I came to the breakfast table the next morning to find a pink eviction notice from my parents. I got the hint, got a job in a real down market, and got on with my life. I expect the same of my kids.

AT guy wrote:

When I graduated from college, I came to the breakfast table the next morning to find a pink eviction notice from my parents.

Awesome. I love clever parents.

On an unrelated note; those of you complaining about paying for grad school, what the hell are you getting your degrees in? I'm getting paid to get my degree!

I think almost all people who go to professional school (aka graduate school in law, medicine, or business), have to contend with footing a significant portion of their tuition bills.

Carnegie Mellon has it dead on. The cost of education has vastly outpaced inflation. So unless one is very wealthy, or very poor (which has been pointed out) they are likely graduating college with significant debt. So there is a whole generation who is starting in the red. And, when you're busy paying down debt, you don't have a lot of capital free to start acquiring wealth.

On top of this, your degree does not get you a job with a salary that has outpaced inflation either. So now you've gotten yourself a more expensive education that is actually worth less. Think about that for a minute. It's insane.

So Joe 20 something is getting paid less than he deserves, while paying down his debt which cost more than it was worth. Meanwhile, the cost of basic needs like housing, healthcare, and transportation have all outpaced inflation as well. So the pieces of Joe's pie are disappearing quick, and each hand is taking a bigger and bigger chunk.

He's done everything he's been told to do by society, but he finds it's not enough to stay afloat. So he has a few options:

1. He can suck it up and work his ass off. Hopefully it's enough to overcome the initial obstacles. (This is probably most of the generation)

2. He can fall prey to (often predatory) further lending in order to create the illusion (or delusion) of success.

3. He can admit defeat and have his stable parents help get him on his feet.

Option number 3 is probably not the most independent or responsible option, but it does achieve the best results with the least work. Those who chose (or are forced) to take option number 1 are admirable, but are still struggling right now. And we all know what has happened to the large numbers of those who fell for #3.

While we were all growing up, it was ingrained in us that the American dream was to do our best, go to college, get rewarded with a job that would let us afford to pursue our goals. So we all hopped on that path. But now we're at the end, and it just isn't as promised. The whole generation was, to some extent, led on a snipe hunt.

---------------------------------------------------

My mom graduated college debt free by working during the summers to pay her tuition. When I calculated how much it would take to pay one year of my tuition, it was something like 60 weeks of full time work at a comparable job. So it would have taken me more than a year of work to pay for a year of school. But if I was working, when would I have time to go to school? It's the biggest catch 22.

I agree with the other 20-somethings that posted up above, as in, we are not a lost generation.

I am 20, and will be diving into the world of graduate school in about a year. I don't need that many possessions, unlike my material-crazed generation, so that will come in handy I am sure. I've worked 60 hours a week over the past 3 summers to help make ends meet when I do get to grad school.

Yes, my parents do pay for most of my expenses now, but they have taught me how to be responsible and a hard worker, because they have made it clear that I get the same deal my brother got - 4 years of undergrad and that is it. A good deal, to be sure, considering that many people don't have parents nice enough or wealthy enough to do that for them. The thing is, I realize this, and will not let my parent's sacrifice of putting me through school to go waste.

Think About It wrote:

While we were all growing up, it was ingrained in us that the American dream was to do our best, go to college, get rewarded with a job that would let us afford to pursue our goals. So we all hopped on that path. But now we're at the end, and it just isn't as promised. The whole generation was, to some extent, led on a snipe hunt.

Oh, how I feel for you.

You're not entitled to anything. You have to earn it. Sorry to break the news.

So sorry wrote:

Think About It wrote:

While we were all growing up, it was ingrained in us that the American dream was to do our best, go to college, get rewarded with a job that would let us afford to pursue our goals. So we all hopped on that path. But now we're at the end, and it just isn't as promised. The whole generation was, to some extent, led on a snipe hunt.

Oh, how I feel for you.

You're not entitled to anything. You have to earn it. Sorry to break the news.

Notice the verbiage ,"rewarded with a job".

Sure , you'll all start out in middle mamagement and become dot.com millionaires in a few months with that degree.

"Pursue our goals"..quote

You're to young to listen lsd addled Dennis Hopper commercials.

Whatever. Compared to what I'm capable of, you are dogshit. Now do the rest of us a favor and die off so progress can be made. Thanks.

You thought you would come out of college and be handed a job that a 45-55 year-old currently holds? Do the math. It took him/her 25+ years to earn that position and salary. Even if they all "die off," as you so pleasantly state, you're still not up for the task. It's called EXPERIENCE. One thing everyone should be aware of when coming straight out of college is how much they DON'T KNOW..

Another 20-something wrote:

Whatever. Compared to what I'm capable of, you are dogshit. Now do the rest of us a favor and die off so progress can be made. Thanks.

"whatever"

I thought only 16 year old girls said that

another trend in the twenty somethings is the effeminazation of men.

the office secretaries will eat you alive before the corporate guys do.

Most of the 20-somethings I come into contact with are worthless. They have the largest sense of entitlement I have ever seen. They can't even do something simple like work a cash register effectively and yet they think they should be store manager. My bank has recently hired a few of these geniuses and now it takes 10 minutes to get through the drive through instead of the 2 minutes it took when the qualified 30-50 year olds were there. Blech.

Like everyone, I fear for our future. I think this banking/credit/mortgage collapse might be just what the doctor ordered. Perhaps it will teach some responsibility.

bitter old man whose life has passed him by and now likes to complainshould i say the same about your generation based on my earnings and standings in the working world...it is ridiculuous, generalizations like the one you made below are worthless, pointless and typically wrong

Chico Sunday wrote:

Most of the 20-somethings I come into contact with are worthless. They have the largest sense of entitlement I have ever seen. They can't even do something simple like work a cash register effectively and yet they think they should be store manager. My bank has recently hired a few of these geniuses and now it takes 10 minutes to get through the drive through instead of the 2 minutes it took when the qualified 30-50 year olds were there. Blech.

Like everyone, I fear for our future. I think this banking/credit/mortgage collapse might be just what the doctor ordered. Perhaps it will teach some responsibility.

I'm not trying to imply in any way that what I said about the "American Dream" reflects my personal attitudes at all. Quite the opposite. I'm just trying to shed some light on the issues brought up in the original post by describing the outlook of a lot of the generation. It's not really my position to say whether it's right or wrong, just that everyone has to be realistic and accept that this is the case.

The part of the issue that I do feel is particularly relevant is the ROI of a college education. It's gotten more expensive and less valuable. This makes it hard to have a fair comparison between this generation of college grads and those from the past.

I'm only 37, the tail end of a generation that actually worked their way up, pays their own way, etc..

Good luck living in Mom's basement while you hold out for a management position.