Break Down Paavo Please

LOL *sigh*

You didn't upset me. In fact I was laughing. It's just slightly frustrating when you want to learn something really bad and other people (not you) try to belittle and degrade someone they don't know or understand. Instead of providing thoughtful input or insight to a certain topic.

Thanks for the encouragement. Seriously. Thanks.

mrkooter

mrkooter wrote:

Instead of providing thoughtful input or insight to a certain topic.

It was there, to be sure, but it apparently was not what you wanted to hear. That will often happen on an open forum, it is part and parcel of the setting. It was a suggested alternative if you want it -- if not, just skip it instead of getting frustrated and pitching a fit.

Let us know how you progress.

mrkooter wrote:

Ideally, yes you want a team of 5-7 to do the program, however it just doesn't happen all the time.

Do you really think the others didn't try to do the program? More likely they did, and just didn't respond well because it wasn't optimal.

That, in turn, suggests that you are probably in their boat instead of being one of the lucky few who end up getting a lot out of it.

Even if you run your heart out, evidence shows that the odds are against Paavo being the best way for you.

I believe Marshall Sellers started coaching high school cross country again in 2005 at Penn High School in northern Indiana. From what I heard, it didn't go over well. The team was decimated with injuries and Coach Sellers didn't last but maybe two years before he left.

Here's a thought. If this didn't work why are coaches and athletes using it successfully? There have been individual and team state champions from a number of states that have used this program successfully.

The problem I see with this program has been stated before. The concept of the CT run is to run at a good pace while still being able to recover. It's a fine line. I would say it's one of the first things to go when someone actually uses the program. I wouldn't suggest following the program to a 't' in regard to the CT runs. The program is also limited to races of 5k and under. Anything longer than that and you're just not training right. The program is also limited to the physiology and biomechanics of the high school runner. A runner with 4 years of running under his legs will be able to bounce back and be less injury prone than a runner with 10 years of pounding on his legs.

The program seeks to do one thing. Create state champions. Broken down that means to take 4 years and make the best possible runner in that 4 years. No where does it state what happens to you afterwards. It's not a program you would do indefinetly. In fact NO program is. If you do the same thing over and over then you'll get fewer and fewer results as the body adapts.

Every program needs to be tailored to meet your individual needs. I've already stated the adjustments I would make for a runner with some experience or and older body and it boils down to more rest. For a college athlete or a runner looking for 5k/10k success I would change the slow intervals to miles and not quite as fast but not as slow as 10k pace. So, let's say slightly faster than 10k pace. You would also need to increase the distance of the workout from 3-4 miles to 4-5 miles. The pace intervals would follow the same guidelines...slightly slower, slightly longer. The PPM segment I would keep the same.

Alan

GTF

if you go back and read how the postings went, no i did not through a fit, i had to re-teach you the theory of paavo, your the one who didn't like it and made a remark, that started the snowball of nonsense.

but however you saw it is what your going to think

wisconsin

you need to read ALL prior postings before you make comments

Sorry, your post is painful to read. Whatever you "had" to do, I am definite that I expressed interest neither in being "taught" nor in being "re-taught" the "theory of paavo". I never requested that of you, despite what you may believe. I have already learned enough from credible experts that I know better.

I shall look forward to reading of your successes.

sounds good.

Here is what I don't get and I hope will clear things up. Mr. Kooter you say that you want to modify the program which if you ask me is the smartest thing you will ever do. The problem with that is Mr. Sellers would tell you that if you modify Paavo then you are not doing Paavo. Where other coaches Daniels, Lydiard and lets through McDonnel in there all say that their training programs are not a strict daily thing and that they should be modified based on how you are feeling.

What I am trying to say is that I think there is no one progam that anyone should do except for the one that works best for their body. I ran Daniels modified and it worked best for me. My entire problem with Paavo is that Sellers says that you should never go astray and that you should run every day of high school. I actually know a girl who did not take a day off all of high school because that is what Paavo said and that if she did take a day off then she was not doing the program.

Paavo tore my team apart with injuries and hatred for the coach because of the fact that he believed we could not do anything different from the exact plan.

If you are going to modify Paavo then I think you are being smart and doing the right thing that will benefit you best but don't come on here and say that you are running Paavo and argue for it when you are specifically donig one of the first things Mars Sellers would tell you not to do.

Usher wrote:

Sonny boy, I was COACHING 30 years ago, so don't tell me the obvious. And I don't have to defend it against some know-it-all like you who wouldn't recognize true success if it bit you on the ass.

And I've coached national qualifers in a state that does a very poor job of supporting distance running. If I'd been allowed to work with athletes directly in the off-season like they can in Texas (how nice it would be to be able to work with your athletes year-round during an athletic period instead of losing kids each year doing jackassery in PE class).

AHHH! Now we see the truth. In thirty years you've had a qualifier or two while another coach whose program you ridicule has had four in the last two years. I've coached for 20+ years and have had over four - but not all in the last two years. But the reason you're outperformed by other coaches is not that they are better coaches, it's because you are a victim of your state's rules. You poor thing. If excuses made champions, I'm sure you'd bring home the national title every year. I have gone to Footlocker, Indoor and outdoor nationals for each of the last two years and come back with All-Americans each time. You know what, I don't use the PAAVO program but I have learned it and I respect it. I would happily listen to someone with knowledge talk about it's mechanics because even after 20+ years, I can still learn. Whereas all you need to know is that you're hamstrung by your state so that's why teams like mine keep kicking your ass. We don't have PE running periods and we can't meet over the summer. We run hard though, often. Hard work trumps excuses. In 30 years one would have thought youat least learned that.

I think there is a difference between what Sellers says and sells and what coaches using the program do and what the individual athletes do. The most common change that I've run across in the 3 or 4 coaches I know who coach using PAAVO is that they don't stress the CT runs as much. You eventually reach a point where "45 seconds per mile slower than PPM pace" becomes unrealistic. Someone running 25:00 for 5 miles is not going to go out and run a 5 mile CT run in 5:45 the next day. A more reasonable approach, and what we tried to adhere to many years ago, would be to take your longest PPM pace and add 45 seconds per mile. For me this was roughly 6:45 pace. Of course if you only do PPMs during the initial pre-season/summer training then that CT pace becomes much easier as you progress and get into shape during the season while doing the interval work.

I have seen coaches stick with the CT runs during the off-season during the PPM portion of the program.

One problem we are having here is that runners are commenting on 3rd hand knowledge and have never been to a clinic or seen the actual schedules. Hell, I've never been to one of their coaching clinics either, but I have seen the actual schedules and training materials and talked at length with my high school coach about it many many years ago.

It doesn't hurt to try. Try it for a season or two and report back.

Alan

Typical egotistical, know-it-all, East Coast a-hole. Ooh, "each of the last two years"?!! What a record! What redundancy! If only you had as much passion for the sport as you have for yourself then you'd have at least twice as much alleged success. And you must be smart if you write like one of your poorer students.

I'm retiring in 4 years and you're welcome to apply for my job and improve upon the sorry state of affairs the program is in right now.

Alan,

I have to disagree with you on one thing and that is that someone should just try it for a year or two. By saying this you are implying that one or two years in a running career is not that important. I would not suggest this because if you throw away a year or two it will take you a year or two to come back from that so in the long run that is 2-4 years wasted and that is a lot of time.

Alan,

By saying soemone should just try it for a year or two you are implying that one or two years in a running career is not that important. I would not suggest this because if you throw away a year or two it will take you a year or two to come back from that so in the long run that is 2-4 years wasted and that is a lot of time.

Thanks Past Paavo Person, will do.

In general,

This is a great topic. I'm seriously being educated by a lot of people that know much more about running programs than I'll ever know at this point. It's going to be sweet when I take all of them (programs & inputs) and mix them up when I become a certified running instructor.

Thanks for the knowledge guys

Usher, why on Earth would I want your job? I'm doing fine where I'm at. I guarantee my boys and girls programs had higher national rankings than yours did last year. Bohica, you really don't want to compare writing proficiency, do you? You guys feel a need to trash a program that has produced better teams and athletes than you ever will. I have stated I don't use Paavo but that I respect it in that it has produced very good athletes that ran tough in national competitions when we faced them. I have coached a couple national champions and scores of All-Americans so I'm not worried that if I did things differently I would have had better success. I would not have entered this thread at all if you blow hards hadn't come on trashing a training program that is among the most successful out there. Between Hilton and SLC, this program has some incredibly strong proponents.