Lydiard anaerobic phase

Read this entry at Running Times dot com....it may piss you off though. Or the other many pages there...

http://runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=5237

Jim Ryun thanks god for his talent, not Coe or any other mortal. BUT he does have a listing of a few books that he refers to as must reads. One of them is Peter Snell's No Bugles, no drums. The other book is Arthur Lydiard's Run to the Top.

I have no idea how he trained, but if you do not respect someone, you certainly would promote one of his athlete's books or one of his very books.

He also provides a testimonial from Ryan Hall, who, as is well documented started his training from coach Dad, who was a Lydiardite and attended Lydiard's seminars and met him and coached Ryan for a few years, based on the Lydiard Base Conditioning method.

Oh hey! Lookey here, Skuj!!!

This is where Daniels, coach of the century according to the NCAA, worked with Jim Ryun.

Coach of the Century Daniels, yes the legendary and great and always accomodating Daniels, woeks with the high altitude camp of Greg McMillan.

Go to Flotrack and check out this information and mouse around some more and notice Greg McMillan talking about how his camp is based on the Lydiard method...

Does that piss you off?

Hi.

Wetcoast;

I'm afraid that I'm not quite following you. Would you be kind enough to summarize all of your points, please?

No.

HRE wrote:

And for someone who isn't Skuj, you do a heck of a good impression. Nice job with improving your English after it had deteriorated so badly in that last post.

So now do you guys still think IQ100 is Skuj?

My intention was just to challenge the dogma to get good arguments.Hey guys im doing the "lydiard stuff" myself!

HRE wrote:

Ok, digging deeper here, there was generally a progression from longer reps or high numbers of reps to shorter reps or faster reps. Recoveries for the shorter reps were usually the same distance as the rep.

That is what I was looking for!

1.My main event is 5K (+10K, so how I progress with the reps.

Is this good plan (just to get GENERAL idea,I know you have to do them by feel)

week 1 a)4x1600 b) 6x800 c) 8x600

week 2 a)5x1200 b) 8x600 c) 12x400

week 3 a)5x1000 b) 10x500 c) 25x200

week 4 a)5x1000 c) 12x400 c) 20x200

I just quickly made that out.

2. Should I try to do high end aerobic running, besides long run 1 times a week?

GregHull wrote:

IQ100, perfection in the Lydiard sense has nothing to do with detailed precise workouts. That's a concept you don't seem to get: it's about judiciously balancing one's training with faster running at the right time which will differ for everyone, that's what's perfect about it. As for a Lydiard cult, don't make me laugh! I'm off to worship, sorry, go for a run.

GregHill

In my last post HRE did comment that I changed perfect for precise. Now I see that the Lydiardists they try to do the same with me.

Don't change the words or the ideas if you please.

Perfect is perfect not judicious. Perfect is being entirely without fault or defect. Satisfying all requirements. Corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept. Lacking in no essential detail. If it was said judicious I wouldn't take so many time, but it was said perfect. This part of the Lydiard cult - they don't say this is the best training. Aren't the anaerobic workouts a detailed element of Lydiard method ?

What you don't get to understand is that after to define or consider something perfect you need to justify for what is that your perfection explicit. Perfection is a concept. Perfection it means not just the whole package, but that every element is also perfect. The Best. But when i ask why is perfect or judicious why can´t you relate that to a concrete workout ?

Each workout, each training session do have a percent of aerobic and anaerobic component.

In the site of the Lydiard Foundation you may read this

"What is the Lydiard Method ?

Perfect combination of Aerobic and Anaerobic training and to arrange ALL THE ELEMENTS of training in a balanced way so you can peak on the day that requires.

I ask you. Does anaerobic workouts aren't one element of the Lydiard method ?

If so why the Lydiardism can't be precise about that element ? Why they are so precise about the need of mileage with 100miles, so precise about the way and when to do hill training and they are so vague about what precisely to run anaerobic workouts.

Perfect is perfect not judicious. Aren't the anaerobic workouts part of Lydiard training ?

What you don't get to understand is that after to define or consider something perfect you need to justify for what is that your perfection explicit. Perfection is a concept. Perfection it means not just the whole package, but that every element is also perfect. The Best. But when i ask why is perfect or judicious why can't you relate that to a concrete workout ? The typical answer is it doesn't matter to take times, it doesn't matter if you do 7X200m or 50X800m run until you get tired. Just go anaerobic.

That's why to consider the Lydiard method "the perfect combination" is a fallacy. A perfect combination f 2 elements t aerobiic and te anaerobic requires accuracy a percent something messurabe, determined.

How do you get a perfect balancing one's training with faster running if he asks about the anaerobic phase and we have that vague answer from the Lydiardists. That's all Lydiard Anaerobic training. That's all a perfect balance.

Lydiard wanted to de-emphasize interval workouts because the majority of runners in his time did interval workouts each and every day. He gave examples: up to 3 miles (12x400, 6x800, 3x1600). He was never really specific in how he went about explaining the program because the program is individualized like any good program. He tells you run hills on these days, sprint work on these days. He tells you run a time trail on this day, sprints or intervals or short race on this day. He gives you a framework and you run with it based on your individual needs and goals. Then you use some common sense.

Let's say you are a distance runner training for the 5k. It would then make sense that your interval workouts run through this pace and even faster. So if you have 3 intervals workouts that day it would make sense to run two workouts at 5k pace, and one at 3k pace, OR one at 10k pace, one at 5k pace, and one at 3k pace:

Sun: 60-90min aerobic run

Mon: 6xmile @ 10k pace

Tue: Easy w/5-10 x 50m-100m sprints at the end

Wed: 6x800 @ 5k pace

Thu: Easy w/5-10 x 50m-100m sprints at the end

Fri: 12x400 @ 3k pace

Sat: easy relaxed run

As far as rest goes, make it so that you can complete the workout tired, but not thrashed as you still have workouts to do that week. Don't focus so much on the individual workout, focus on the density of training. Then as you progress you can reduce the rest.

Alan

Is that from Alan or from Lydiard? Did Lydiard say these things about structuring the speed work?

Hi. My name is Nobby Hashizume. My e-mail address is

nobby@lydiardfoundation.org

. If you have any complain or accusation, and it seems some people seem to have tons, please direct them to me in a little more professional manner. Identifying yourself first might be a good start. We'll take a look at them and make any necesary consideration.

And don't abuse Skuj's "style" or whatever. He's not as bad as you guys think. ;o)

Hi. Nobby again. Just to make things a little more clear. I'm co-founder and one of executive directors of Lydiard Foundation. My partner is Lorraine Moller. I put together that presentation that many of you are complaining with Arthur Lydiard before his last lecture tour in 2004; page by page. Later we added more to explain things more clearly; and before we made it public, we went through two of our honorary advisory staffs: Peter Snell and Dave Martin. Any of the complains and accusations you may have, we'll make sure we'll do the same (of course, we can't go through Arthur any more; but that's probably good for you, whoever you might be).

Hi Nobby. Well you know my complaint, that Lydiard's definition of Anaerobic is wrong, and this issue needs to be addressed in order to avoid confusion and also to avoid the problem of talking bullshit.

I am not talking about the training itself, but about the way the training is discussed.

Nobby wrote:

Hi. My name is Nobby Hashizume. My e-mail address is

nobby@lydiardfoundation.org

. If you have any complain or accusation, and it seems some people seem to have tons, please direct them to me in a little more professional manner. Identifying yourself first might be a good start. We'll take a look at them and make any necesary consideration.

And don't abuse Skuj's "style" or whatever. He's not as bad as you guys think. ;o)

Thanks for your proposal but i willn´t do it.

Do you think that i violate any legal procedure of LRC by post with a nickname or something offensive ?

Do i violate any legal procedure while discuss or comment the Lydiard method ?

Do i violate any legal procedure of personal offence while discuss, comment or disagree with some points of the contain of the Lydiard Foundation ?

Do I have the freedom of discuss about Lydiard training, to contest, to judge for my self and express my opinion as long as i´m not offensive ?

Don´t we live in a democracy ?

Are you the same that in another post you said that you didn´t dislike what Jason/Mayeroff said abot Ghost ?

Actually let me say this. I´m no payed to post in LRC so i´m not interest in the professional manner. Besides i see that most of you don´t agree with my opinion. I´m an outsider in my opinion about Lydiardism mainstream. Therefore i guess I do a great job to promote the Lydiard method. So as far as concerns me you don´t need to worry about. You have millions of people that read LRC and they think i´m wrong.

Actually it happens that i´m friend of Skuj also indeed.

Ms. Wellnow:

Thanks for your comment. We're aware of that. Dr. Martin puts it "Arthur knew enough physiology to be dangerous." We address his "shortcome" on his physiological terms during out presentation (same with his concept of lactic acid but we are so far keeping those terms as is to sort of "honor him"--besides, that lactic acid deal is a perfect example of what science knows CAN change 180 degrees overnight).

If I didn't make it clear, my e-mail address is

nobby@lydiardfoundation.org

or you can also send it to my more public e-mail address, which is posted here at letsrun as

nobby415@msn.com

(this one actually has more capacity). And, if you've ever heard of "constructive criticism", please do so by including such "constructive" suggestion as to what we should call that instead of the terms Arthur himself popularized, that would be great.

Thank you.

I love you.

IQ100:

you don't make any sense:

"If it was said judicious I wouldn't take so many time, but it was said perfect."

Hilarious, I should have known better than to take the bait. You even misspelled my name to wind me up, genius!

Jeffd wrote:

My intention was just to challenge the dogma to get good arguments.

Hey guys im doing the "lydiard stuff" myself!

HRE wrote:

Ok, digging deeper here, there was generally a progression from longer reps or high numbers of reps to shorter reps or faster reps. Recoveries for the shorter reps were usually the same distance as the rep.

That is what I was looking for!

1.My main event is 5K (+10K, so how I progress with the reps.

Is this good plan (just to get GENERAL idea,I know you have to do them by feel)

week 1 a)4x1600 b) 6x800 c) 8x600

week 2 a)5x1200 b) 8x600 c) 12x400

week 3 a)5x1000 b) 10x500 c) 25x200

week 4 a)5x1000 c) 12x400 c) 20x200

I just quickly made that out.

2. Should I try to do high end aerobic running, besides long run 1 times a week?

Jeffd,

The first thing I'd want to know is what sort of racing season you're looking at. If you're in the US and are going to race indoors until March, then race outdoors until June or July, we're looking at a different animal than if you're planning to do anaerobic work now in anticipation of a racing season that isn't going to start for 3-4 months.

If the former is the case, I think you're doing way too many interval sessions in a week. I'd just do one of the ones you're suggesting per week with maybe a second day of something like 100s, i.e. something that wouldn't generate lactic acid. If you do that along with a weekly race you'll be fine. Specifically, you could just cycle through them, perhaps making adjustments as you sense that you need either more work at faster paces or more work on endurance.

If it's the latter and you're going to start serious racing in April, I think you're starting your anerobic phase way too soon. Lydiard typically had the anaerobic phase lasting for 4-6 weeks. You're looking at something on the order of 12.

If you aren't about to start serious racing until April but you've been doing a lot of aerobic work, maybe even a hill phase and are ready to move on, we're left with the quetion about what to do over the next couple of months and while I could speculate about all sorts of scenarios, it would be a lot better if I just knew what was going on.

Also, if you reply, I'd sort of prefer if you sent it to me privately. If you really want to put your reply here I will answer it, but this thread has deteriorated to the point where I'd rather stay off of it.

In the Lydiard method to do the anaerobic training in a correct practice that is an important issue in the training context. Or that he means by anaerobic training despite what Wellnow comments that is correct. Different percent use during the sevaral blocks that makes one season.

Once again and according Lydiard the anaerobic training does such an impact that he advise us to avoid it and doesn`t prescribe it during the base building training blocks. He insists that wrong or inadequate use of anaerobic it may damage and create a negative impact. Imagine that you schedule your next peak in July, If you stat the training season in the previous October you don´t get benefits to run any anaerobic workouts. You may get tired or damage your aerobic improvement.

Also he did include some other precison about his training method. The marahon training 100miles advise. The way to do the hills during that block. The need for tne long run.

That´s not hard to admit that the training option tat´s to avoid anaerobic training completly durng the build-up blocks this is very cautious very criterious very precise. The Lydiard method seems not to left nothing out of control. So precise. Some couple of months before the peak he says in the name of a correct quite perfect balance of the aerobic and anaerobic balance the misuse or the lack of crterious in what training zone you exercise shall enable you to maximize your potential when it comes the time to peak.

Well. Then what we see? Does the Lydiard method it uses the same criteria when it comes a crucial block that´s anaerobic block ? No it doesn´t.

May be that Lydiard himself, a very skillful coach with a high intuition for coach runners he can get out the best of them based on his training experience and individual knowledge of each runner and that may allows him to decide what the runner shall do in that anaerobic workouts in a daily basis decision. That´s famous what he did precribe the Dick Taylor workouts during that period right before that Christchurch 10000m win.

But no one of you is Arthur neither we can be advised by him.

Then in such short and deteminant and crucial bock as is the anaerobic one to be vague opr not precise and undefine is something that can´t constitute a good training avise. That´s not judicious, neither precise, neither perfect. That´s inadequate to say until you feel tired or to use the runner good-sense as Runningart2004 you say. That´s not enough to give some workout examples. What´s the runner good sense in this situation ? Otherwise that´s the season moment and the training zone that all good physiology and all good sense would advise to be criterious, or if don´t wher´s the danger and the refuse that some of that anaerobic training may be done during the build-up blocks ? One of the two advises is wrong. To avoid the anaerobic training during the buld-period would require a very criterious of that same anaerobic use during the anaerobic 4 weeks block.