TRAINING

Renato say:

>Kenyan marathoners are the greatest power in the world about the distance. However, when I say that Kenyans have not a correct mentality for running marathon, I really want to say that for Kenyans Marathon isn't a specialism in their mind from the beginning of their activity. Kenyans fear marathon, don't love it. Ethiopians love marathon.<

Fearing the marathon is perfectly sensible, to me. Kenya may not be as successful as one would expect, in championship events, however I believe that if they do not have the "correct mentality" for the event, no one does.

Hussein & Ndeti specialized in running the Boston Marathon and came away with three wins each. Both trained primarily in Kenya. (Hussein also spent time in Arizona/New Mexico)

Renato,

Can you discuss your philosophy as it releates to Lydiard.

How do you respond to Lydiard, when he says that once

you start anaerobic dev., you no longer can improve aerobic.?

Keep your info coming!

That's a good question pre. I like the simplicity of Lydiard's ideas. Compartmeatlising trainig into specific periods. As well as being physiologically knowledgeable, the psychological benefits of knowing where you are in your training schedule are an advantage. This helps to maintain focus. However I don't think Lydiard's marathon programme is as good as Renato's.

i think i agree, i have to digest again today and order the book.

i read through the entire post last night after a couple glasses of

wine so i had a little trouble comprehending it all.

I'm base building right now for LA in March and I am going to incorporate his methods. At the very least it has given me

new motivation.

"no one gives a damn about womens' running."

That tells me a lot about you. Statistically you speak for your moronic self, yet write as though you are trying to give information.

Here's Ten bucks to say you are not able to run with the top women, so don't criticize us... or have the bull-headed attitude that you speak for the masses.

Alot of people like women's running - try 60-million Brits. I think Deena is a little more popular than Mr. F_ Chucker too

60 million people who eat jellied-eels and fried candy bars are not exactly the folks I'd align myself with!

the fried chocolate bars (one doesn't refer to them candy bars)are much more appetising when you dip them in the jellied eel pot,washed down with a piping hot cup of tea.

Aren't they supposed to be Mars bars?

I'd wager that 59 million of us have never tried either...

I am very interested in your posts...I am considering training for the marathon for outdoors..I am wondering if you might possible work on a time line and a list of workouts for me...I am a 27 minute 8k 15:45 5k and a 9:40 2mile. I have been folowing the vdot values for my training for cross. If you could e-mail me or post back I would appriciate it and keep up the posts. Thank you

Faststud_01@excite.com

There's a big difference between athletics of 40 years ago and athletics of today. At the time of Lydiard, activity was very little, lasting only a short part of the season. This fact suggested to use LONG PERIODS OF PREPARATION, during which it was possible to work for blocks (aerobic development before anaerobic workouts). Today, this type of training is no more possible, if you want to compete frequently following the current calendar. When Snell and Elliot won OG, the number of races that they ran in the season was really very little : there was no professionalism in the activity, because athletes had amateur status also if their level was at the top. This fact, that provoked short durations in the career of many athletes (Elliot finished his activity only 22y. old, after winning OG with the new world record...), on the other side permitted a very deep preparation for those athletes that had no problems of money or of job, and wanted to test themselves at their max. level.

For example, in marathon Derek Clayton was already able running in 2:08.37 in 1969, preparing his world best with more than 5 months of training without other competitions.

Now, a top runner wants to compete in the most part of the season, running different distances.

So, the modern system has to take into account the needs of the athletes.

Growing at the same time (if we are talking about a period of 2 months, for example) in endurance and speed is not only possible, but absolutely correct.

If you stay long time in aerobic activity, you can extend your base for next period, but cannot bring your Anaerobic Threshold on a very high level, so you need more long time for building high intensity later. After I continue my discussion.

What is important to understand is that there are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF TRAINING :

1) SPECIFIC TRAINING for your SPECIFIC SHAPE for the important races

2) TRAINING for SPECIFIC TRAINING

For example, if you are able running 4 times 400m in 53" recovering 4 min, and with this SPECIFIC WORK you can run 1'46" on 800m, if you want running in 1'45" is clear that you have two different possibilities (about tthe evolution of this workout) :

a) 4 x 400 in 53" using 3 min recovery instead 4'

(improvement in specific endurance reducing recovery time)

b) 4 x 400 in 52"5 always with 4 min recovery

(improvement in specific speed endurance running faster)

c) 5 x 400 in 53" using 4 min recovery

(improvement in endurance running a bigger volume)

The goal in training is clear. The question is : HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO IT ?

Lovers of intensity say : run 4 x 400 trying running faster, going directly to solution b) spending some time

Who believs in aerobic base, says : before try to develop your AEROBIC POWER, for having a higher base for working in anaerobic way.

For example, we can extend the SPECIFIC BASE running a crescent number of 400m in slower time : 10 x 400 in 60" recovery 1 min, that develops in 8 x 400 in 57" rec. 1'30", that can develop in 6 x 400 in 54"5 rec. 2', that can develop in 5 x 400 in 53" rec. 4', that can develop in 5 x 400 in 52" - 52"5 rec. 4', that at the end can develop in 4 x 400 in 51"5 - 52" rec. 3'.

For running 10 x 400 in 60", you NEED MORE AEROBIC BASE.

For running 4 x 400 in 51"5, you NEED MORE SPEED.

So, you can combine at the same time workouts of Aerobic base (1 h progressive run, 40' fast, 20' very hard) with workouts of pure speed and strenght (short sprints uphill, speed drawing a sledge, exercises of explosivity), trying to improve the speed in the first, to last more in the second.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE IMPROVE OUR SPEED IN ENDURANCE (because is also easier running a little bit faster when your speed is better) and our ENDURANCE IN SPEED (as is possible running very close your max. speed for a longer time).

ALL THE DISTANCES ARE OF SPEED, as in any case the winner is the fastest.

ALL TRAINING IS OF ENDURANCE, because you can always to last more long time very close your max. intensity.

SO, TRAINING ENDURANCE WE CAN IMPROVE IN SPEED, and of course is correct also the contrary.

Renato:

>There's a big difference between athletics of 40 years ago and athletics of today. At the time of Lydiard, activity was very little, lasting only a short part of the season. This fact suggested to use LONG PERIODS OF PREPARATION, during which it was possible to work for blocks (aerobic development before anaerobic workouts). Today, this type of training is no more possible, if you want to compete frequently following the current calendar. When Snell and Elliot won OG, the number of races that they ran in the season was really very little : there was no professionalism in the activity, because athletes had amateur status also if their level was at the top.<

In 1959/60 Murray Halberg NZ Gold Medalist in Rome, Lydiard disciple ran 30 races including trips to US & England. I believe the Lydiard athletes built this large base and sought to maintain it while racing at different levels of intensity nearly year round.

Same as today.

Training systems evolve or are greatly affected by environment. As Lydiard developed his training, it was in the context of New Zealand competitive calendar.

We all know that the American competitive calendar is at odds with the European calendar. We're not as far away from Europe as New Zealand and Australia, but in mentality we may well be further. Americans base their training/racing on the school year: xc in the fall, indoors in the winter, outdoors concluding in June. Consequently, we'll have an indoor champion, Krummenacker, fail to progress to the finals outdoors.

that was the case with krum this year but his coach Oliviera trains the opostite of Lydiard. To say that is why he didn't advance is wrong.

I don't know if I would call de Oliveria "the opposite" of Lydiard.

Do you have any ideas about the Moroccan Middle distance system or el guerrouj, what kind of mileage they do? etc...

This is a great thread!

El G's training is on my site, kingofthemile.com/training.html

Moroccan training, oztrack.com/hicham.html

College Runner wrote:

I am very interested in your posts...I am considering training for the marathon for outdoors..I am wondering if you might possible work on a time line and a list of workouts for me...I am a 27 minute 8k 15:45 5k and a 9:40 2mile. I have been folowing the vdot values for my training for cross. If you could e-mail me or post back I would appriciate it and keep up the posts. Thank you

Faststud_01@excite.com

I hope you're female, or you have a sense of humour with your email address.

I would be interested in hearing the training suggestions though, although I'm not as outgoing as you - I'm looking at the marathon for indoors.