Why shouldn't a white American run as fast as the best Africans?

City Boy wrote:

Wow, that is very impressive! Good luck

So had you started with the above at age 15 - would you be a world class runner?

Everyone has a certain capacity to train, to go beyond that you get hurt/sick etc, Im sure most of us who train hard try to find that point. Then what seperates us is talent, Every East African who has better times certainly doesn't train harder than every American whos times are lesser.

Maybe you started running relatively late in life and feel that if you were younger and just trained real hard you would ahve been world class?

Thanks.

I started competitive running at a very young age, but I didn't have the emotional responsibility when I was young

to develop my physical potential. I would have needed a very special coach to help me with that problem.

I think this probably applies to a lot of us. I think that many East African runners from the farming communities are probably more emotionally mature at a young age, because their lives are less complicated than ours, and they have more responsibility to contribute to the task of rearing siblings, herding livestock, planting and harvesting crops etc.

When a coach selects them for his training group, they are going to do the workload without the distractions that we have.

Are you interpreting talent in the physical sense?

I see talent as a psychological attribute. I believe that physical talent for running is extremely common in our society but mental talent is extremely rare.

TrackCoach wrote:

if you take Dick Beardsley's 2:08 marathon, Mark Nenow's 27.20 10K or Salazar's 13:11 5K, Brian Diemer's 8:13 SC or Todd Harbor's 3:50 mile and add a modest 5% improvement...we would be right there with the Africans.

I'd say; 5% off of a 3:50 mile would yield a 3:38.

Lance's post is interesting and has good points, but I have to side with the "anti-PC" guy regarding some of the beliefs and 'facts' that have yet to be backed up with science, meaning conclusive studies using significant numbers of subjects. Most of the material regarding sports from people like John Entine and others has been selective at best. But there are differences. I see some politics in this, but not in the same way as the guy(s) Lance is arguing with.

I doubt there are conspiracies as one sees in the movies, but there are groups of people that seek to manipulate things because they think they are helping correct things. We see this in all kinds of politcal movements and stances.

There probably is an element to brainwashing in some of the "white guys can't do it" thinking. For instance, if I said to "Lance-a-lot" that is isn't likely an all-star team of black chemists could match an all-star team of white or Asian chemists etc. he would go into contortions trying to say I was wrong. But if you say whites cannot match blacks in something like distance running, he throws up his white flag. It's the same as people blindly supporting a Kenyan runner taking Clomid - a known masking agent - saying she MUST have wanted children, there's no way she, being a black African, would cheat. Ridiculous. Look into the background of Jos Hermens. Are all Africans cheating? Of course not. Are any of them cheating? There's no doubt the answer is "yes".

There is an ebb and flow in everything. Different people and groups enjoy dominance and then someone else moves in. It's quite possible this could happen with running. It's likely, in fact. Who knows? Maybe East Indians will take over the 5 and 10. For instance, poor blacks held the lion's share of boxing titles for decades, but even though more of them are in the boxing gyms than ever, they have in fact been crowded out by poor Hispanics in the lower weight divisions, and 75% of the champions from 155 lbs. on up are white, most of them Europeans from backgrounds of poverty. The blacks aren't hungry enough anymore is one theory - they are able to move up through society outside of sports, and those that don't are too well taken care of by the government. Could be true, because the media excuses of less blacks participating doesn't wash. There are more boxers than ever in the US, but now they are facing increased competition. Competition from people with nothing to lose.

It's not realistic to compare runners of the past like Salazar with Geb or KB. Runners train to attack certain targets. The targets were different for Salazar, as they were for Nurmi and are different for Bek. Unfortunately, the targets hit today are exactly what was predicted when EPO came into the picture, and there is in fact an imbalance in testing protocol, especially in 'flying' and 'spot' tests. This is why many runners on the circuit are suspicious of some of the East and North Africans. I have to agree with the poster who felt that Marius was playing up the E. Africans in order to make himself appear to be more special. We see things like that in other events and fields as well. That's just the nature of some people.

Ryan Hall has shown he can run as well as the E. Africans in the half. There are others out there with the talent, but whether they will even take up the sport is another question entirely. The E. Africans have a preponderance of individuals with the physiological make-up to be world class. The percentage of whites or Asians with this make-up is smaller, but they do exist. Running is not a way out for Europeans or Asians. It is for poor Africans. Talent and desire plus hard work go a long way.

talent is hard work wrote:

Are you interpreting talent in the physical sense?

I see talent as a psychological attribute. I believe that physical talent for running is extremely common in our society but mental talent is extremely rare.

NO! The kenyans do NOT have some kind of unhuman pain threshold, or mental mindset which allows to do the amazing things they have done.

I have trained with them, they don't try any harder than you or me. As Alberto Salazar demonstrated multiple times, you can only push yourself so hard. At the world-class level, almost everyone, regardless of racial background, is trying just as hard. The only things that set them apart then are 1)physical talent and 2)ability to go 100% under a lot of pressure.

I agree that the E. Africans tend to choke less. However, it's easier not to choke when you have immense physical talent!

This is an interesting discussion. When I ran in the Olympics we had a few africans. Keino and Gammoudi were the most talented and both did very well in that year and ensuing years.

I maintain that genetics is a big factor in that body type is so important to being a good distance runner. That being a smaller body weighing no more than 120 pounds. (approximately) Also to attain that weight the Africans have very small calves which muscle is obviously not needed. Most Europeans or possibly all, have large calves which is just extra weight to lift with each stride.

I was six feet one half inch and weighed 147 in Tokyo. I was thin but I was also small boned which helped. I had some problems with my body which I will not go into here but those problems made a difference. but it was the way I was born and I had to do the best with what I had.The point is I needed my oxygen to propel my body around the track because of the extra weight.

I have also maintained that we lose many potential distance runners in our system as the youngster who has the proper body type is left behind very quickly for he is never chosen to play games early in his life because he is too small. Therefore it would be in our interest to take these youngsters and have them compete against each other until they reach maturity where with proper training they will be able to become good distance runners. This will probably never happen since it would take years for these youngsters to develop and in our society we would not have the patience.

As far as drugs are concerned it was rumored that drugs were being used in 1964 but not by distance runners in the United States. However I am not so sure they were not being used by others who ran distance around the world.

The last three posts have been very interesting.

I've always felt that a lot of kids with world beater potential in the US don't bother to go out for track or anything else because they were either the 'last picked' for other games and sports or just felt they were too skinny or small (or both!). Jim Ryun entered the sport almost by accident. While the Kenyans and Ethiopians and North Africans have what seem to be a ton of guys with talent, there are no doubt all kinds of guys walking around with the genetic make-up in the US or Europe who never gave running a thought or maybe much of a chance. It'll be interesting to see if Hall's success carries over to the track. I'm hoping he sticks with the 5 and 10 for a while. He should listen to Teg and help put some Americans on the map in these events. Lagat is a citizen, but in truth he's a transplanted Kenyan like the guys running for Bahrain.

Conspiracies? Heck, I'll weigh in. There sure seems to be one in TV. Every other commercial shows some dumb and/or goofy white guy being straightened out by a black guy or woman. It's a staple of advertising these days.

I think there's a lot more talent in the US and Europe than people suspect, but running is just not that big a deal. Never was really. It was a third tier sport even during its heyday in Europe.

Kenyan........Trains 175 miles/week minimum

American.........Trains 50-100 miles/week

Kenyan........Has a purpose greater than self

American.........Runs for self only.

Kenyan........Feels pain, uses pain, welcomes pain,

American.........Slows for discomfort, fears pain, avoids pain

Do you see a pattern developing here? Try look up my winter training program and check out all the NEGATIVE responses to working hard.

________________________________________________________

Excuse me, I said that talent is mostly mental. I never said anything about Kenyans having a higher pain threshold.

I don't believe that at all.

Craig Mottram says that talent is 90% mental, and that he has been tested physiologically and doesn't have any special physical characteristics. He puts the work in day after day week after week, month after month, year after year. He belives in himself. You had better believe that he wants to be the best 5000m in the World.

talent is hard work wrote:

Craig Mottram says that talent is 90% mental, and that he has been tested physiologically and doesn't have any special physical characteristics. He puts the work in day after day week after week, month after month, year after year. He belives in himself. You had better believe that he wants to be the best 5000m in the World.

You're serious? So, when I started running as a 14 yr old and I ran my first mile race and dying at 7min and my teammate was running under 5min, it wasn't that he was more talented, it was that I wasn't mentallity "with it"?

Go watch the women's 5000m from Berlin 2006. Kara Goucher is running as hard as she can at low 15 5k pace. With 500m to go, Dibaba and Defar step to the outside and turn it on -- that's not mental, that's the fact that those two girls are probably good for 54-something for the open 400m, whereas Kara is nowhere near that (if she were, she'd probably be running the 800m in this country).

Mental strength means little without the physiological tools to use it.

talent is hard work wrote:

Craig Mottram says that talent is 90% mental, and that he has been tested physiologically and doesn't have any special physical characteristics. .

Craig Mottram is FULL of crap. He is in a one in a trillion talent. He was immediately successful in THREE sports, becoming jr triathalon champ in Austraila (where the sport is huge), and then after only a FEW years of switching to running full time, became world class. He was finishing top 10 at world cross after only a few years of full time running. He is INSANELY talented. The fact that he is so big (though the long legs help) and can still run so amazing shows just how naturally talented an aerobic animal he is. Sure he works hard, and sure he is mentally tough, but it's BS to say that he doens't "have any special physical characteristics." Big time BS.

And it was nice to hear from BOB SCHUL! Bob has shown that if you have a great coach and system (Igloi), and work your ass off, yes, one can be a great champion (but of course despite some physical limitations that Bob alluded to , yes, he was talented too. You got to have SOME SPECIAL talent at least to even have a shot at being the best).

(And was that really Gerry Lindgren on that this thread too?? Or just a "tribute" poster? It's hard to keep track of the real superstars of running that post here(of which there are many) and the pretenders (which, alas, there are many too). But if it was Gerry......Gerry Lindgren and Bob Schul on the same thread? And a thread so full of nonsense by several posters. Who would have thunk it!)

400m pace isn't everything, but it is very important to the top 10000m runners.

I don't have good 400 pace, but I can run 4x400 very close to my 400 PR.

I doubt if Catherine Ndereba can break 60 seconds, but I bet she could smash the Women's 100k record. For that reason I think the 100k should be an Olympic event, because those with Ultra distance talent can truly show the World what they can do.

Your first two sentences are so ridiculous that my respect for you and your opinions has been severely compromised.

Mr. Marathon wrote:

To be truely world class as a distance runner today you need four things:

1) crazy talent

2) hard work

3) great coaching/program/philosophy

4) mental toughness

Lack any of those four and you'll not likely make it to the world class level.

Having those four things does not depend in any way shape or form on your color or national origin.

Someone from any culture can have these four elements.

I am so sick and tired of hearing people talk about "The Africans" and using there national origin as an excuse for being beaten. Give me a break.

How do you explain that most of the All time top American distance marks are/have been recorded by people of East African descent. We have a greater number of immigrants from other parts of the world right?

And on this same note, I'm sick and tired of the rest of the world complaining about US sprinters being the best. Our sprinters just work harder than the rest of the world's sprinters. Right!? ;)

zorba the great wrote:

How do you explain that most of the All time top American distance marks are/have been recorded by people of East African descent. We have a greater number of immigrants from other parts of the world right?

)

That's not true. They don't really dominate the all-time lists here. Lagat is a transplant. I think you are one of these guys that goes into self hate mode to show how far you can go to praise others as long as they aren't those hated white guys. I betcha one of the guys above is sort of right. If you were asked to explain why white guys dominate in making major inventive and scientific breakthroughs despite millions of others, especially Asians, devoting hour upon hour a day to do well in school and on tests, you'd say the white guys are handed some kind of sneaky advantage. But if black guys or someone else who isn't white dominates something, then it's white guys who can never hope to match up.

There's talent out there. Maybe not in as high a percentage, but it's out there. Hall's brother is enjoying success too, and if he develops along the same lines it will show that hard work is a component. These guys are not carrying the genes of peoples who have lived at altitude for millenia.

Considering the fact that it's turned out 'our' sprinters have had officials cover up for them for decades, including King Carl, maybe their dominance isn't what the generally ignorant public thinks it is.

Yeah, our sprinters have turned out to be the dirtiest hypocrites. That aside, the talent distribution is not equal in anything. But it's more than talent, you have to be willing to do the work, and most guys in Western countries do have it easier AND usually have other activities and concerns to take up their attention and time. Low participation, little interest overall do help keep numbers way down from what they would be if running were as popular as even little league. But the East Africans would still have a large share of the top runners, out of proportion to their overall population numbers. Same as Slavic weight lifters, Asian gymnasts, white swimmers. Certain groups have a higher percentage of people suited for different activities, but yes, there is no reason why some Americans (or Europeans or Asians) could not run as fast or faster than the top Africans.

I tend to agree.

What's important, though, is that the things you're describing aren't RACIAL differences. They're POPULATION differences. East Africans and West Africans may, to clueless whitefolks, all look like "black people," but as you and several others have wisely noted--or implied--East Africans are average sprinters and West Africans are undistinguished distance runners. Because we're talking about two different populations. To toss both populations into the bucket marked "black people" tells you nothing about precisely the things we're interested: which sub-populations of "black people" are superiod distance runners and which are superior sprinters?

In other words, it's precisely because East Africans are "genetically gifted" distance runners and West Africans and people of West African extraction are "genetically gifted" sprinters that the category "black people" explains little or nothing about the particular genetic gifts any one dark-skinned person of African orgins may possess. "Black" is a useless term in this context. It doesn't tell us anything about what sort of athletic gifts we're dealing with.

I've asked before, but I'm asking again: Will somebody please post charts documenting the fastest all-time lists for 100/200/400 with all WEST Africans excluded, and the same lists for 800-10,000 with all EAST and NORTH Africans excluded. And with EAST Africans highlighted in the former list, and WEST Africans highlighted in the latter list.

You understand what I'm getting, at, I'm sure. Populations, not race, are what we're dealing with here.

Unless, of course, you want to claim that East Africans and North Africans, together, constitute a discrete race, and that West Africans constitute a discrete race. The race of great African distance runners on the one hand; the race of great African-sourced sprinters on the other.

Finally, will somebody please post these all-time fastest lists as they appeared in, say, 1955? Thanks.

talent disbursement wrote:

Hall's brother is enjoying success too, and if he develops along the same lines it will show that hard work is a component.

Actually, if he develops along the same lines it will add further credence to the idea that genetics plays a role in athletic success.

(Though how anyone could actually doubt that in the first place, I have no idea.)