Cram VS Aouita

We didn't know at the time what a horrible record the morrocans would have

Every one of them doped to the eyeballs

Aouita likely the first

just sayin wrote:

Coevett wrote:

I've read that blood doping can improve performance in middle and long distance events by 6%. If we assume that Aouita was taking HGH as well (he divided his time from 83 between Italy and the USA - 'where you have to go to get it'), maybe his times were close to 10% better than they should have been. It would explain ENTIRELY his improvement from circuit also ran 83. It's likely he would have struggled to break 14 minutes for the 5000 and remain a 3:37 1500 and 1:48 800 guy.

We didn't know at the time what a horrible record the morrocans would have

Every one of them doped to the eyeballs

Aouita likely the first

Indeed. There is a stack of circumstantial evidence that Aouita doped, including the obviously doped performances of the North Africans who followed him.

8 1500m world titles in a row won by North African dopers after the 80s

1991-2005

Morcelli right through to ramzi

Les wrote:

The Ovett/Coe reign ended after '81. Neither ranked #1 ever again. They could occasionally turn in a great performance -- Ovett WR, Coe Gold medal -- but they could not dominate over a season ever again. By '83 the torch had been passed to Cram/Aouita.

Not true. Coe was ranked World no 1 over 800m in 82 and 86 by T&FN.

He also ran the fastest time in the world over 1000m and 1500m in 86.

Although ranked world no 2 over 1500m in 84, despite winning the Olympic title, the same as in 1980, to my mind he did enough with that performance and subsequent win in Zurich to be at least = No. 1 in 84. That went to Aouita, who ran (winning all) more races over the distance that year. As with 80, Coe just didn't run enough races to get the number 1 ranking.

Coe was ranked above Cram over 1500 in 84 and above Aouita over 1500 in 86, so it's misleading to suggest it was just Cram and Aouita. Coe certainly held his own against both, even though he was giving away about 4 years in age.

But yes, the total domination of Coe and Ovett did end in 81.

portsea wrote:

i'd say those were somewhat significant, wouldn't you? the dirty littleoroccan was quite the dodger. it was the same shite with coe abd ovett.

Interesting article pointing out the lengths to which Aouita was ducking Cram all the way up to the 87 world championships :

Aouita even ducked Ovett in 84!!

"Ovett, selected to run both the 800 and the 1,500, just as he did at Moscow, has also had recent problems. Seemingly in top shape when he set the record, he has been suffering from a skin rash that has hindered him considerably. But he won the 1,500 at Oslo on June 29 after both Maree and Said Aouita of Morocco, who has the fastest time in the world this year for the distance, had withdrawn, and his time of 3:34.50 encouraged his supporters. Last Tuesday night, he powered off the final curve at Edinburgh after a tactically slow early pace and won impressively in 3:36.90."

This is 100% true, the only question is where is Aouita now? And who is he coaching?

Coe should have been no.1 in 1984, without a doubt but not in 1980.

try to think ?!

very important for your development/understanding/mastery of sport

try to think ?!

very important for your development/understanding/mastery of sport

why have you not learnt from Korir's 44.53 off jog to 200 in windy meet ???

i said that was worth 44-flat for open 400 if flat-out

he runs 43.34 relay !!!

that is open 44-flat as i said

so we have a nobody Kenyan who last year was 46+/1'46+ who this year already in

~ 44-flat / 1'42-flat

if you convert that nonsense 1'43.73 off ridiculous jog to bell to a 2s +ve split 800 with huge pacer drafting to bell

if a Kenyan who was likely 46+ last year off no weights can be 44-flat now, what is your problem that Ryun here was not also 44-flat in brief relay run at end with 3'55.8 mile on sludge in his legs, likely worth 3'47+ off rubbish pacing/drafting, on '70s track, all on cold day ???

learn to think...

400 is basic unit of time for run starting/finishing at same point

your lack of logic is shocking !!!

any elite/serious runner whether 1500 or 10k or M has on that day a finite 400/800 ability

to think otherwise is totally absurd !!!

think harder now knowing Korir & likely Ryun at 18y...

Blah, blah, blah!

The only joke on these boards is you.

You say Aouita had "zero chance of winning a medal" in the 800 final in Seoul.

But he did win a bronze! So how could he have had zero chance?

He was ranked no 1 in world in 88 based on his races prior to the Olympics, so clearly he was one of the favourites.

You added 3 caveats to Aouita being in 1:42 flat form (which you have now brought down to 1:41 high! Lol) in Seoul: if not for rounds tiring him out, the injury and running wide. You then calculated a 1:42.8 based on the extra distance run on bends and only on that.

He did not run 4.8m wide in last bend. That would entail running the entire bend in the middle of lane 2. He was nowhere close to running that. It was 8.5-9.0m

His first lap was 50.8 not 50.5.

You claim Coe was in 1:42 high form in LA, slower than what you give as Aouita's potential in Seoul. How are you able to deduce such nonsense when Coe ran faster, ran further extra distance wide, and finished his race faster over last 200 and 100m?

Coe ran more even splits, whereas Aouita ran close to a 2 sec positive split, which you are always harping on about being the best option for fast times!

Coe ran 1:43.6 and ran at least 10m extra on bends, certainly more distance than Aouita. 103.64/810 x 800 = 1:42.36

He was in 1:42.3 form not 1:42 high. Your analysis is biased and your maths remedial.

And that is without any adjustment for it being 4th race in 4 days, which you would always claim would tire athletes. I personally think it would be negligible, but if YOU are going to adjust half a second or whatever figure you choose to use this week for 1 athlete, then you have to apply same for all others.

The1:42.3 for Coe also doesn't take into account the 2 clashes of elbows on the home straight with Jones.

The 36.14 last 300m for Aouita in a 3:34 is not corroborated with any video evidence. I have seen several races from Italy and France, where they have stopped the clock in the wrong position for split times, sometimes to the extent of improving last 300m split times by over a second. Considering that you were convinced the Marsaille 1500 the other year started from the correct line, and was proved wrong, then I can imagine you'd have difficulty finding a 300 split time anyway.

I repeat, Aouita never ran a 46.8 relay leg as you claim. Go fetch a link or even offer a date and venue! Otherwise, it didn't happen, so stop making things up.

I never said Coe had an injury in LA. Learn to read and comprehend English.

It never came into my calculations, but it has no baring on the extra distance run, which is what you were basing Aouita's 1:44.06 being worth 1:42.8.

Coe was known to be carrying a foot injury in Zurich 84, as he had outlined in a Times interview the day before. He had said that there was a strong chance the race in Zurich would put further stress on it and could cause him to end his season. It was heavily strapped for the race and it was aggravated by the race, forcing him to end his season early.

I stand by the comment that you cannot equate the amount or size of strapping to a specific time. Aouita did not 'run and n 1 leg' as you claim. By the semi and final he had both legs strapped, so surely that means he was running legless, according to your way of thinking!?

Coe ran with a pelvic tilt and one leg longer than the other In Moscow 80. You can't see that! How is that any worse or better than running with a strapped leg? These things cannot be measured in time.

Coevett wrote:Aouita even ducked Ovett in 84!!

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/23/sports/injuries-bedevil-britain-s-splendid-runnerss.html

"Ovett, selected to run both the 800 and the 1,500, just as he did at Moscow, has also had recent problems. Seemingly in top shape when he set the record, he has been suffering from a skin rash that has hindered him considerably. But he won the 1,500 at Oslo on June 29 after both Maree and Said Aouita of Morocco, who has the fastest time in the world this year for the distance, had withdrawn, and his time of 3:34.50 encouraged his supporters. Last Tuesday night, he powered off the final curve at Edinburgh after a tactically slow early pace and won impressively in 3:36.90."

is this a joke ???

this was ovett's best run before games

he had 0 chance of gold in '84

let's analyse splits :

ovett with 3'34.50 with ~ 42.5 finish

Aouita in Grossetto had 3'34.82 with a 36.14 !!!

What are you talking about?

1/ You keep quoting and replying to me in the wrong thread.

2/ In the other thread I made the point that Ovett was considered a favourite for LA, which is factually correct. Out of him, Coe, and Cram, he had the best build up, imperfect that it was. I don't think he raced against Scott in 84 (until LA), but Scott flopped massively in the end in LA. If Ovett hadn't fallen ill he would have beaten Abascal for at least the bronze. Both Cram and Coe performed much better than anybody would have predicted a few weeks before LA when Ovett was on a 7 race streak and looking like he was running back into the WR form of 9 months previously (which you have several times admitted was 3:29 form, something Aouita only achieved when at his very best in 85).

3/ In this thread I pointed out that Aouita pulled out of a race that Ovett had entered in 84 pre LA. If Aouita would have thrashed Ovett in 84 it only proves what a coward Aouita was for ducking him.

4/ The problem is you are the only person who believes that 36.14 last 300 time.

5/ Ovett was clearly jogging for most of the home straight. You can see before the finish line when he looks to the left and realizes Gonzalez is at his shoulder he suddenly starts to sprint clear again.

@Calculo - you've stated a number of times that Ovett's WR at the end of 83 was worth low 3:29. Unlike a lot of your 'calculations' a few others, including Deano, actually agree with you there.

Yet you claim that Ovett was suddenly washed up a few months later in 84 and was never a threat again. Yes - with the benefit of hindsight. He developed a skin rash during the 84 season which were hampering him a little as well as some niggles but he was still only 28 and if hadn't fallen ill he would have likely been in the same form he achieved in late 83 ie. sub 3:30 form. That's backed up by his actual performances in LA where he managed to reach two high quality finals despite suffering from both bronchitis and heart problems. Yeah, running an Olympic final with a slight hamstring problem is difficult, running 7 races including two finals in 9 days whilst suffering from bronchitis and inflammation of the heart is not only difficult but life threatening.

Obviously Ovett was never the same again after LA. Most athletes would be completely finished after that. Yet he still showed flashes of his brilliance, beating Cram over a mile in Cram's year of 85 - something Aouita couldn't do, and then winning the Commonwealth Games 5000m at a canter in 13:24.

Just looking again at the 1983 3:30.77, I would not normally say that Ovett was worth 3:29 though it was not outside the realms of plausibility, but he did look smooth that day. However, how would you describe the wind that day? Normally Rieti is pretty perfect but if you look at around 3:05 on the race clock there is a pile of flags blowing flat out and the trees in the distance are blowing as well given that the track is not a sheltered stadium. But when Ovett lifts his arms up in air to celebrate the two flags just before he is hugged are completely limp indicating perfect conditions. Interesting.

Don't waste time and energy trying to convince someone who lives in a fantasy world, that changes every day!

He used to say Ryun could have run 1:41 for 800m, now it is 1:38.9. The former theory is nonsense and the latter should tell you just what sort of mind you are dealing with. He will tell you wonderful things about Ovett and his ability, if it is in the context of comparison with Coe, who he belittles at every opportunity. But he is quite happy to contradict himself and change his mind (come up with a lame excuse) if it helps him in another discussion.

You'd be better off debating with Said88 and others, who live in reality, make more sense and are not unacceptably rude.

By all means respond to him and highlight his nonsense with facts (he doesn't like that!) but you're never going to convince him with valid reasoning and facts, and he will never apologise or claim that you are correct.

IMO Ovett was coming into great shape for LA, and I don't see how he couldn't have been in at least as good a form as 83, where his build up was not perfect. He ran faster over 800 than he had for several seasons, even though he was ill. I think he might just have missed out on a medal in the 800 in LA without the bronchial problems, but he would certainly have medalled in the 1500m.

Had Aouita chosen the 1500 instead of the 5000m, then of course he would also have been a big threat to all 3 Brits.

The supposed 36.1 300m finish is almost certainly a mistake. There are several incorrect split times given on an annual basis in T&F. It's pretty obvious if it is too good to be true. It's lack of credibility is backed up by there being no video footage, no other splits given from the race, and the fact he never finished (even slower) any other races anywhere approaching that time.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Just looking again at the 1983 3:30.77, I would not normally say that Ovett was worth 3:29 though it was not outside the realms of plausibility, but he did look smooth that day. However, how would you describe the wind that day? Normally Rieti is pretty perfect but if you look at around 3:05 on the race clock there is a pile of flags blowing flat out and the trees in the distance are blowing as well given that the track is not a sheltered stadium. But when Ovett lifts his arms up in air to celebrate the two flags just before he is hugged are completely limp indicating perfect conditions. Interesting.

cut the crap

ovett said he was shocked at clocking in the big wind of rieti

read it in his book

ovett was likely 3'29-flat/low just off bad wind !!!

& his peak was likely '78 !!!

ovett said Ryun was his hero

obviously no carrier-strap-jock inference needed !!!

Always so pleasant. If you read what I posted earlier the wind conditions are somewhat awkward. Some evidence of strong winds and other flag poles were completely limp. I also own a copy of Ovett's autobiography, and you are correct in the sense that he goes on and on about how strong the wind was that day. I must state though, as much as I like Ovett, he is incentivised to exaggerate and Norman did state that you could see the wind but not feel it. If the wind was as strong as he is claiming, 3:29 was certainly realistic even quicker. But I would suggest that upon closer video analysis it would be one of Ovett's best performances irrespective of time. He just looked good that day. But he had other occasions to run 3:28 and never did.

Ovett was probably at his peak over 800m in 1978 but not as a miler.

I don't get your other statements, wrong person.

offer better evidence of trackside wind

tell us about you running 1500 in Rieti ???

don't waste my time

i had that book 30+y ago & dug it out

utter drivel

where is norman in the 1500 ???

what "norman" was running in those elite races to tell us the wind ???

offer his quote ???

that's what ovett says

no

he was in incredible shape in '78 & likely '80

~ 1'42-mid / 3'28-flat

calculo wrote:

As usual your analysis is skewed and exaggerated

never

always objective

And where and when exactly did Aouita run this 46.8 relay leg you claimed he ran on one of the threads on here a few days ago?

same page you saw

You have completely made that up. There is no documented evidence of Aouita ever running a 4 x 400m in competition

is this a joke ??

it was listed on site with many other runners careers

it likely was early '80s

LOL. Why have you repeated everything twice in your last post?

Do you think doing so will somehow give it more credence?

It's a lot of nonsense and not worth wasting time dealing with each point, but I will repeat that you have totally made up Aouita running a 46.8 relay leg.

It is a lie.

I have asked you to give a link, not make up some vague nonsense of being on a site somewhere, as justification of an original piece of nonsense.

If you cannot provide a link, or even a date and venue of said nonsense occurring, then it never happened. And it confirms the point I made above. Namely that your 'analysis' is skewed and exaggerated, not to mention based on times that never happened.

Andy Norman, who went with Ovett to the Rieti meet.

Norman, "It's funny, you know. Although it's blowing you don't feel it." As I have said before I like Ovett but he may be exaggerating about the trees leaning side ways. Again the day may have been mildly sub optimal but he still ran a WR.

You provide evidence of the wind, I have been pretty thorough and fair in my analysis.

You tell us about your 1500m in Rieti?

Isn't there whispers that the Rieti track either short or illegally hard anyhow (hence the fast times run there)?