Lydiard or Cerutty

perce's cabin is still there in shambles on the dunes. he was a tremendously inspirational man to quite a few lads of my time. i had the privelage of spending quite some time with him as a young man. his lectures were very odd (and numerous), to say the least, though he made you feel like you could be or do something important and relevant. i think he was a bit of a bipolar looking back. also, to answer a previous question halberg did come for a time out to portsea. the lad even lifted perce's weights with his good arm and bought full to perce's program for a touch. he eventually went his own way like landy. i should say that you are right about herb having the record on the hall circuit. he was only second best on the short dune record, however! (and by far not the best on the surf!) snell never visited portsea that i know of. at least not when we were there from 1955 to close to 1962. herb still even came down from perth to see us on occasion even after he became the toast of rome. however, he quite fancied his time on the golf course- but no longer to run there- to play! i got the impression that snell didn't quite fancy the ways at portsea anyway. for the lad who made the comment about herb, us, and our longer runs, we certainly did quite a few 20 mile slogs- up and around the golf course and back down to the beach. i can say that i think herb would have been a brilliant man over the marathon. he told me a story years ago of how he and gordon pirie (exceptional english 3 miler and 6 miler who most everyone got on well) once went for a good hard 22 miler. herb said he pushed on gordon the entire way and continued for at least another 7 or 8 miles after he had put pirie in his place. herb believed in perce's training, as we all did. he wouldn't have you there for long if he sensed otherwise. however, i feel obliged to say that you can't rightly credit him with all of landy's progression. john made a go of it on his own after some stints at portsea. he and perce weren't always the best of mates, but they were exceptionally complimentary of each other when they weren't together. they certainly kept in touch as mates up until the point that perce passed. john's buildup was quite monotonous after he left portsea. for example he would do 8 miles everyday at close to 5.30 a mile for 3 months at a time for his initial buildup (with an eventual goal of beating bannister to the barrier), then for a period of time repeat 660m runs 4 0r 5 days a week on the old cinders in sydney. he would only run 30 minutes at an easy pace on his days between. in a discussion with john around 1960 in sydney, he told me that there were days in his "middle building phase" where he would do up to 16 of these repeats. when it came to racing time, he was always a believer in fast 440 runs. sometimes as few as one as fast as he could go- i would bet my father's watch that he had run close to 48 sec at one time or another. an additional session he liked was 4 of them in 55 seconds or so. he always liked to do the odd 1320 at close to 3 minutes if he could manage it in training. to run the spiders from his legs is what he called it. sometimes he would run the 1320 a bit slower at 3.05 followed by a good quick 880 if the 1320 had not gone well and then a 440 to be sure. i should say that he also had a session of 2 or 3 of these 1320's around 3.10 or close to it. most of his track training was done on the old cinder track in sydney and the easy runs done at the park there as well. as we all know, he eventually became the first aussie and second ever to break the barrier in finland. a very nice gent to say the least. i've gotten off the mark now, haven't i? thanks to all you lads out there for the memories. you make an old man very proud. remember to run because you love it. find the passion that lurks inside of you and release it when you run! all the best!

cheers,

an old cerutty man

Thank you. I'm impressed that there is someone who ran with PC actually following this. If you feel like adding any other memories please go ahead.

i think you have hit a soft spot as i certainly enjoy talking about the old days gone by. perce could certainly be a madman. you have to know that perce would never ask you to do anything that he wasn't willing to do himself. that poor bloke would torture his body to the point of sheer exhaustion at times. he certainly wasn't one of the new guard who coaches with a beer belly and a smoke in one hand! i will tell you a story that we still talk about when we get together. it is true how we all came to the bunks on friday evening and usually stayed until Sunday night- some stayed later. well herb comes dragging in one friday night smelling of alcohol. of course, perce knew about this and could tell straightaway. he gives herb a couple of hours sleep and then gets his bell at around four in the morning rattling it in his ear. we are all in the same bunks and are not just startled but terribly annoyed. perce is yelling at the top of his lungs about how he is going to beat the great herb elliott over the short dunes. you have to understand that the idear behind the short dune was to see just how many a man could do before they were spent and retired. so here was percy and herb sprinting up the short dune at four in the morning with perce goading herb and yelling the whole way. herb ended up losing all his dinner after about fifteen or so. of course, perce was laughing the whole time to see herb having such a tough go at it.

Have you read "Why Die" and if so what did you think? And, forgive me for asking this, but when you were with Percy did he refuse to shake hands? A friend who met him told me this was the case. I'll give you the reason Percy gave him if you want.

no, i haven't read the book. my mates and i likely lived the book! i did forget to mention about the comment of his diet while we were training. he always insisted on very raw foods. lots of oats for energy and lots of beans for strength. your friend says that he wouldn't shake his hand? for what reason? i haven't ever heard of him doing that, but i would certainly not put it past him. he was eccentric in every sense of the word. but remember that he was also visionary and really thought things through. you always knew that his goal was to inspire you and make you not just a better track man, but also just a better man in general.

My friend put his hand out for Percy to shake and Percy turned red, shook his finger and snarled, "Only homosexuals would touch another man!"

If you ever want to do some extensive reminiscing drop me an e-mail.

Cheers,

Rich

old man,

You don't know how much it means to us Percy fans to hear these stories. I've read everything by him and most everything about him but firsthand accounts are precious. I think these comparisons with Lydiard or anyone else are quite beside the point: Percy was incomparable. They don't make them like that anymore. Thank you, old man, and please keep writing...

Old Man,

This is brilliant stuff. Where else are we going to find it?

Thank gawd for LetsRun and people like yourself willing to share stories.

brilliant

poty

i wonder who the mystery old cerutty man is

Yes please keep the stories coming.

I have thought that PC was a bit odd, but I also think that he purposely liked to tweak people at times.

Despite his foibles, he did lead by example and appeared to be extremely fit, at least for his age, until very near the end.

Sorry to hear about Les Perry, HRE.

old man,

thank you so much for your stories. there is a book or even a movie in your memories:

"Precy, Herb, and the Men of Portsea" or something like that.

Anyway, I started this post to have some good discussion about Cerutty and his training methods, philosophies, etc. I only used Lydiard's name in the post and set it up as a Cerutty vs. Lydiard thread to get some initial interest. I have started other Cerutty threads in the past and they have only reached 8-10 posts. We are on page 4, so that is a start.

Thanks again, this is priceless stuff.

i talked to john today about this discussion. as we are a couple of old bastards now at 72 and 76 he's not too keen on computers, but i suggested he give this a go. i think he's on his way to melbourne tonight, but you shouldn't be surprised if he adds a scope to this discussion of perce. as for talking about a movie being made of us, i certainly shant be surprised. every weekend it seemed that there was a writer or newspaperman who had come to portsea to see us practise. perce loved the attention. he was always coming up with a new theory where for a time he would have us galloping like a horse on the golf pitch. talking about newspapermen, perce was very opinionated and as stated previously, was extremely well read. he formed his opinions of you straight away. well we had a newspaperman coming from the adelaide area i think it were one weekend. he insisted to follow us on one of our training runs by motor car and take some pictures. now perce just didn't get on with this gent. so perce says to the man, "me and the lads shall be out for the run tomorrow early and you can follow and then go for a surf." the lad follows us by motor car for a training session toward port philip where we nipped off for a swim. perce encourages the gent to go for a swim as well to cool off but he hasn't any swimming attire. so he says to "just swim like the natives". since only the wealthy had houses in the area and there were few people in the area at that time the newspaperman obliges and goes out into the surf as the rest of us. perce steals away the mans kit and tinkers with his car as the unfortunate gent was enjoying the strong surf. so we baked in the sand for a bit to dry off and then start our slog back to the bunks. now the man is frantic saying that he has lost his clothing with percy playing the joke as some of the "wild animals" must have carried them off. and as he stands there naked he realises that his car isnt going to cooperate either. i can still laugh when i think about the rage that this man was in as we nipped off for home. he never returned to portsea and we laughed everytime that we saw his suitcase perched in the corner! i can also remember another sportswriter that was on perce's bad side about some comments that he had made about herb. he had been fed a "secret ingredient" tea by perce while writing about us one weekend at portsea. though the tea was comprised of aloe and one of percy's laxative roots! we had to hold our laughter everytime the man had to nip off into the bushes! thanks again for all these great memories. are the lot of you competing athletes? and further are you aussies or just an international crowd?

old man,

I'm in California and still "competing" at 42. Hoping to be running at 80 like PC...

good on you. competition comes from within, no matter if you are speaking of athletics, morals, or even your business. be tough, mate. find out what is really inside you. one of the keys to a healthy life is understanding who you are. after the 40th hill repeat, a man begins to paint a picture of his innate fortitude!

Well, I only made it through five hill repeats last night, so I haven't even picked up the paintbrush yet. In my defense, my hill is a little higher than Percy's sand dune...

Still competing now and again after 39 years in the sport. This is mostly a US crowd, but we get a few Brits, Kiwis, Aussies, Irish and some others here. I was in Oz almost a year ago, out in Perth and environs.

How about you? How did you stumble onto this site and are you still running?

I am a 53 year old mid pack marathoner from the US. I came to the sport late and enjoy reading about the greats in an earlier era.

Perce met a lot of athletes from all over the world. Especially at various Olympic games. In part because of his extroversion.

I'm old enough to remember when 40 was over the hill and 'fruits and nuts' were only eaten by 'fruits and nuts'.

Perce was way ahead of his time in his dietary and exercise ideas.

I also started late, read voraciously, and quickly realized that Cerutty and Lydiard had pretty much figured it all out way back when. I was immediately drawn to Percy not just for his wacky personality but because of his understanding that man is an animal, and like all animals, we are designed by evolution to thrive in our natural environment, eating our natural diet, running barefoot on trails, and all the rest. Evolutionary arguments are, even fifty years later, still misunderstood and viewed contemptuously by otherwise intelligent people (try suggesting that our feet are actually designed to do fine on their own without the latest hyper-engineered spring-loaded running boots and most of LetsRun will scalp you). Sure, he was nuts, but Percy thought hard, and critically, and fearlessly too, and for that I can forgive a lot.

good on you all! young or old, running is a way to commune with your body, God, and everything around you. it helps to make you understand yourself a bit better. it can give you confidence. you can be in the traffic of melbourne or new york and still be lost in your euphoria of a good run. i think that the men of today see athletics as a business. the lads and i certainly didn't see it as such. there were a few perks- the girls (wink) and the directors would have us out for a pint or two after a successful race. we certainly didn't make the money that the current men do today. it was all for love of our sport. i no longer run on my legs, but certainly in my head. those were times when perce called you a stotan, you just knew that you would succeed in life and athletics. i should also answer you that my grandson and i found this spot while searching for some trainers advice. he has a bit of a funny foot and seems to wear the odd shoe. we ran with the shoes we were born with at portsea! i think my grandson has the same feeling that i had as a boy. he is drawn to run just as i was. keep practising. for the man with five repeats, herb always stood by the adage that when you felt as if you were spent, you still were only at about 70%. give it a go!