Men's Trials in Central Park a disservice to competitors

Gene Frenkle: ..and I'll be doing myself a disservice.....and every member in this band, if I don't perform the hell out of this.

Bruce Dickinson: Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!

Kudzu might be right. Especially about the tens of thousands of Sunday marathoners watching the race. A huge portion of the NYC marathoners are out of towners. Since they're out of towners, they'll be in town throwing money into the local economy and won't have to be at work on Friday. They'll just be going to the Expo and being touristy. Since the NYRR is involved in both races, they're sure to hype the hell out of the trials to these out of towners. They'll probably provide trials spectator guides to all Sunday marathoners in their expo packets.

So even if only 2/3 of nyc marathoners are from out of town, that's 20,000 who will have not much else to do except go watch. Then factor in their families. It could be a good turn out.

I still think having the extra time to qualify would have been better for all the athletes, not just the guys trying to slip under 2:22. Regardless of your level, things such as injuries, illnesses, and bad days happen. Now there is only one fall season in which you can get a qualifier. I'm practically postive that Brian Sell and Trent Briney got their qualifiers for the 2004 Trials at Chicago in the fall of '03 then Sell went on to lead much of the Trials and Briney hit a huge PR and finished 4th. There may have been others who qualified there or at other fall marathons who were factors in the Trials. Could these guys have qualified before the fall of '03? Probably, but maybe not, and they certainly deserved to be there. With marathoning, you only get so many chances, and most of those come in the spring and fall, with the fall probably the better of the two. Cutting out an entire fall marathoning season just isn't ideal from an athlete's standpoint. I know you might still be able to get a qualifier in the early fall of '07, but if you want to run well at the Trials, it's gonna be tough to qualify a month beforehand and then perform well in NY. All that said, I believe most of the guys who deserve to be there will still get there, and at least now we all know when and where so we can plan accordingly.

What major mens player is now (TODAY) without a trials Q???

besides Gabe of course!!!:)

2:07:04 A Khalid Khannouchi (NY) Flora London Marathon 4/23/06 London, England

2:09:56 A Meb Keflezighi (CA) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:10:55 A Brian Sell (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:11:02 A Alan Culpepper (CO) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:12:45 A Peter Gilmore (CA) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:12:53 A Mbarak Hussein (NM) Seoul International Marathon 3/12/06 Seoul Korea

2:14:12 A Clint Verran (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:14:28 A Jim Jurcevich (OH) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:15:23 A Luke Humphrey (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:15:26 A Casey Moulton (NH) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:15:28 A Nate Jenkins (MA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:15:35 A Patrick Moulton (NH) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:15:39 A Josh Ordway (OH) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:17:37 A Jacob Frey (VA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:17:54 A Dan Sutton (WI) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:18:03 A Ryan Meissen (WI) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:18:28 A Mbarak Hussein (NM) USA Marathon Championships 10/2/05 Saint Paul, MN

2:19:12 A Carlos Carballo (CA) Los Angeles Marathon 3/19/06 Los Angeles, CA

2:19:29 A Chad Johnson (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:19:30 A Steve Moreno (CA) Los Angeles Marathon 3/19/06 Los Angeles, CA

2:19:37 A Chris Lundstrom (MN) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:19:45 A Jason Delaney (CA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:19:47 A Dan Kahn (NC) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:19:47 A Andrew Cook (TX) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:19:57 A Kyle O'Brien (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:20:10 B Trent Briney (MI) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:20:11 B Marzuki Stevens (CA) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:20:26 B Cecil Franke (IN) Flying Pig Marathon 5/7/06 Cincinnati, OH

2:20:27 B Mike McKeeman (CA) Flora London Marathon 4/23/06 London, England

2:20:28 B Michael Reneau (WI) Grandma's Marathon 6/17/06 Duluth, MN

2:20:41 B Carl Rundell (MI) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:20:43 B Ben Rosario (MO) USA Marathon Championships 10/2/05 Saint Paul, MN

2:20:43 B Jason Ryf (WI) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:20:45 B Miguel A. Nuci (CA) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:20:52 B Terrance Shea (MA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:20:54 B Christopher Zieman (CA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:21:09 B Eric Heins (MO) P.F. Chang's Ronck 'n Roll Arizona Marathon 1/15/06 Tempe, AZ

2:21:12 B Martin Rosendahl (CA) B.A.A. Boston Marathon 4/17/06 Boston, MA

2:21:16 B Tommy Greenless (CA) P.F. Chang's Ronck 'n Roll Arizona Marathon 1/15/06 Tempe, AZ

2:21:34 B Ed Baker (MA) Freescale Austin Marathon 2/19/06 Austin, TX

2:21:42 B Wynston Alberts (OR) USA Marathon Championships 10/2/05 Saint Paul, MN

2:21:44 B Chris Banks (CA) Los Angeles Marathon 3/19/06 Los Angeles, CA

2:21:53 B John Lucas (OR) Los Angeles Marathon 3/19/06 Los Angeles, CA

2:21:54 B Chris Seaton (NC) P.F. Chang's Ronck 'n Roll Arizona Marathon 1/15/06 Tempe, AZ

10,000m Track Performances

Time Std. Name Race Date Location

27:22.8 B Abdi Abdirahman (AZ) Hengelo 5/28/06 Hengelo, NED

27:34.72 B Alan Webb (VA) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

27:35.65 B Dathan Ritzenhein (CO) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

27:37.74 B Antony Famiglietti (NY) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:02.73 B Mario Macias (CO) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:10.59 B Brandon Leslie (NM) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:17:49 B Ian Dobson Hengelo 5/28/06 Hengelo, NED

28:22.33 B Matt Gonzales (NM) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:24.08 B Westly Keating (TX) Stanford University Invitational 3/31/06 Stanford, CA

28:25.6 B Fernando Cabada (VA) Oregon Invitational 10,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

28:26.22 B Ryan Kirkpatrick (CO) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:27.43 B Nef Araia (CA) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:27.71 B Dan Browne (OR) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:32.49 B Rod Koborsi (DC) Stanford University Invitational 3/31/06 Stanford, CA

28:33.90 B Jason Lehmkuhle (MN) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:35.63 B Jason Hartmann (CO) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 10,000 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

28:40.20 B Josh Moen (MI) Stanford University Invitational 3/31/06 Stanford, CA

28:41.95 B Bret Schoolmeester (CO) Stanford University Invitational 3/31/06 Stanford, CA

28:43.19 B John Moore Stanford University Invitational 3/31/06 Stanford, CA

5,000m Track Performances

Time Std. Name Race Date Location

13:25.81 B Dathan Ritzenhein (CO) Oregon Invitational 5,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

13:27.94 B Chris Solinsky (WI) Oregon Invitational 5,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

13:29.30 B Bolota Asmerom (CA) Mt. SAC Relays 4/13/06 Walnut, CA

13:33.07 B Ryan Kirkpatrick (CO) Mt. SAC Relays 4/13/06 Walnut, CA

13:33.53 B Matthew Tegenkamp (WI) Oregon Invitational 5,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

13:34.92 B Fernando Cabada (VA) Mt. SAC Relays 4/13/06 Walnut, CA

13:35.34 B Jonathan Riley (MA) Oregon Invitational 5,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

13:35.49 B Rod Koborsi (DC) Mt. SAC Relays 4/13/06 Walnut, CA

13:36.33 B Jason Hartmann (CO) Oregon Invitational 5,000 meters 4/21/06 Eugene, OR

13:36.76 B Celedonio Rodriguez (NM) Mt. SAC Relays 4/13/06 Walnut, CA

13:38.06 B Andrew Carlson Reebok Grand Prix 6/3/06 New York, NY

13:39.81 B Bret Schoolmeester (CO) Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 5,000 meters 4/30/06 Stanford, CA

Excellent point, wineturtle.

Case Closed in regards to qualifiers.

Muger Cement wrote:

Excellent point, wineturtle.

Case Closed in regards to qualifiers.

That's just it and I think is the point RTC was trying to make. You don't know what players might develop over the next 12-18 months. Sell and Briney weren't seen as a players when they toed the line in '04. People like Josh Cox might all of a sudden pop a 2:13. You just don't know, but you guys have your minds made up and that's fine.

Angry nyorker wrote:

I'll ask again. Do you know central park? Have you run there? Heart break hill(s) or not, central park is slow. I'd love to be able to wager some money on this! No one is running 2:11 there. At least not from this country.

Ha ha. "Angry," you are just being difficult. If you are going to make a hypothetical blanket statement, then at least try to base it on comparative data. I will repeat myself- what makes you think that Meb will not run a 2:11 in New York? He ran 2:11:29 in Athens. I don't care how 'slow' you seem to think central park inherently is- it is not as tough as the course or the conditions in Athens. To make a blanket statement and say no one can run 2:11 there is silly. Again, if central park is so inherently slow (as you insist), then why are the 8k Championship times very fast there EVERY YEAR. The 8k is quite hilly, certainly no less hilly than the trials course will be, and guys are routinely dropping 22 minutes there. And, yes, I have run in the 8k Champs (and set my pr there), as well as having run in central park on a number of occassions. I'm afraid i'm going to have to disagree with your theory.

or perhaps not wrote:

Muger Cement wrote:

Excellent point, wineturtle.

Case Closed in regards to qualifiers.

That's just it and I think is the point RTC was trying to make. You don't know what players might develop over the next 12-18 months.

How will we know they developed?`~~~~ They will get an OTQ!!!

The qualifying date for the men has been moved to 2007. I am sure that there will be protest about the shorter qualifying window. Also, I am surprised that no one has noted the following:

"In addition to marathon times, women can qualify by running a track time of 33:00 or faster for 10,000 meters and men can run qualifying standards by achieving track performances of 13:40 for 5,000 meters or 28:45 for 10,000 meters. Athletes who achieve these times or qualify with a marathon time faster than 2:47:00 for women and 2:22:00 for men may compete in the race but do not receive funding. There are currently 46 women and 67 men qualified to compete in the 2008 Olympic Trials Marathon."

IMHO, this cheapens qualifying. In the past there was only a qualification for the marathon. In my mind the marathon is a unique race that requires a person to have special skills. Also, a marathoner must make sacrifices that other distances do not. The athletes that have qualified in the other distances (so far as I can tell) have yet to qualify in the marathon. Thus, the number of qualifiers will be inflated (already 33 additional athletes in the men’s field). I have heard that the reason for this change is because more athletes make the race more interesting for the spectators. Aren’t these races conducted for the athletes? Unfortunately it may also create a situation where the lead pack goes out unreasonably fast because of the large number of inexperienced marathoners. Further, in past races as a “B” qualifier I have had the opportunity to stand very close to the starting line. Unless people like me get the "A" qualifier they will likely have to stand far from the start line. Yes, yes, yes, I know who cares about the "B" qualifier. Still, we work very hard to get our qualifiers and this lessens the luster. I am surprised that they would have conducted this experiment at the 2007 championship race first instead of the Olympic Trials.

Oops I ment to say:

I am surprised that they are not conducting this experiment at the 2007 championship race instead of the Olympic Trials.

Again, I'd love to bet some dough on this.

As for the 8k - One year ('04?) Meb ran very fast (low 22:xx I believe) but most years the winning time is closer to 23. For world class guys, I don't think that is that fast. For a tough course, which it is by the way, low 22 is smokin'. You set your pr there? Great! It would have been faster on a flat, fast course or on a track.

I didn't say that it would be impossible for ANYONE to run 2:11, just ANYONE from the US. Maybe Meb could come close, but that's it. I gaurantee the winning time will be around 2:14. If anyone runs 2:11 or faster it would be a life time performance. Of course, I'm just trying to be difficult.

Far from the starting line? With maybe, at most, 90 people? You sure have a strange definition of far.

I rather doubt there will be more than a handful of men and women who use other times to run the trials. Guys and gals who are track athletes aren't going to want to put in the time/effort to run a marathon. Take a look at that list and tell me who is really going to run the trials. I see Ritz and Browne - who are liable to get marathon qualifiers anyway - and then maybe six or seven other guys on that list, some of whom are liable to get marathon qualifiers in the future.

And for all this whining about "Maybe someone can't get a qualifier in time" I would have thought the ability to qualify via other events would be a good idea. Someone pointed out Brian Sell as benefiting from a longer qualifying window; well, if the new rules had been in effect in 2004, he would have qualified via his 10K track time.

All points taken. Last time we started on the track (90 additional people would seem far), but you are right this is not a big deal. Personally I do not care about the qualifying period (I have already qualified). I was just surprised to see so little complaint.

Personally, I'd like to see the qualifying mark eased and more runners enter. The 2:20 to 2:30 runners are the future lifeblood of the sport. Give them the carrot of being an Olympic Trials Qualifier. Just don't give them the same level of support, or any support for that matter.

Make the Olympic Trials an every 4-year distance "convention" where the best in the country can congregate, race, and grow the sport. It'd be awesome to see 1000 Americans get together and run sub 2:30. Before the hippie 70's runners complain, yes, i know, that kind of time doesn't compare to when you ran in tube socks. But times have changed and something needs to be done.

good point regarding the track start - i'd forgotten about that. i could be wrong, but i think some athletes had suggested allowing qualifiers from 10K times (i think the 5K qualifiers are a little bit of a stretch but i don't see many taking advanatage of it). i think it's an appropriate move.

wineturtle wrote:

What major mens player is now (TODAY) without a trials Q???

besides Gabe of course!!![/quote]

MATT DOWNIN

From Friday night in Indy add the following people to the qualifiers list:

Jorge Torres

Bernard Lagat

Matt Tegenkamp

Adam Goucher

Sean Graham

Total people qualified to date: 72

Correction - new qualifier is Ed Moran not Matt Tegenkamo who had already qualified so new list from Friday is

Jorge Torres

Bernard Lagat

Adam Goucher

Sean Graham

Ed Moran

Total people qualified to date: 72

azrunner wrote:

Last time we started on the track (90 additional people would seem far), but you are right this is not a big deal.

The women started on the track, not the men. Have you got your races (or gender) mixed up?