Lol, uhh the Roches are by far the worst of the pseudo-science influencers. Megs pretends she has an MD (she went to medical school, never cared for a patient in her life) and David is constantly belittling healthcare professionals and the scientific community as if he is somehow above it all? The analyze listeners blood work, recommend supplements that have no proven benefit and David even came up with his protocol to heal his “plantar tendon” which is amazing as that doesn’t even exist. These 2 are the biggest snake oil cons in the industry and you’re just another one of their Marks. Enjoy slurping your Ketonez!
I'm no fan of the Roaches. There is one point I would disagree with thouguh.
Meg literally HAS an MD/PhD. She doesn't need to pretend, she actually has one. If she claims to be a physician without going through residency and passing the board exams, that'd be a straight up lie (has she ever done that?)
Lots of MDs never go into patient care, but go to work in biotech or pharma doing research or product development with their MD. I know of an MD that clears $500k+/yr doing medical device sales.
There's nothing wrong with that and that doesn't negate all the scientific/medical knowledge they acquired in medical school.
David on the other hand... ugh. Enough said.
I’ve been practicing medicine for over 15 years, I can tell you with great certainty that a medical student knows essentially nothing and “getting your MD” is just a piece of paper. Yes selling medical devices can be lucrative career but this is irrelevant to the main point. People love to flash credentials, and Megs is no exception.
Weird take coming from you, Sage. Of course Molly was capable of being closer to Tara Dower at Black Canyon, but she made some mistakes (which she has talked about) in fueling and hydration, and she is still working to develop skills at downhill running. After all, she was still doing primarily road training up until NYC in November. I'm a fan of hers and never heard of her coach, but I wouldn't dream of thinking somehow he failed her as a coach based on Black Canyon.
Also, nah, you and the Roches didn't deserve all the cr-p you got about Spring Energy. It was bizarre that people were blaming athletes for the sins of the manufacturer when you had nothing to do with it. If Koop was coming at you, he was using it as a pretext to come at you since he had an axe to grind.
Thanks. The other time Koop has lashed out at me wasn't even about Spring. He does it with other ultra-coaches in Colorado from time to time (I'm not the only one). Which is weird because "Higher Running" (our small coaching business) is very small potatoes compared to the massive "CTS."
My point was more along the general lines that "it's relatively easier to coach an elite athlete in trail-ultras": Like a 2:2x marathoner doing a runnable ultra course with not much climbing and not much technicality doesn't require as much "coaching influence or differentiation "imo. Coaching a "regular midpack runner" who has a family and full-time and limited time to recover is "harder" imo. It requires more coaching skill. Elite road marathoners already have a lot of mental discipline and durability and aerobic base from being competitive on the roads/track. They have nearly unlimited time to train and recover. Basically all you have to do is: 1. "Teach them nutrition and hydration methods for an ultra (crew support during the race as well as pacing support can help a ton here)" and 2. Make sure they don't get hurt and have gotten in at least some long runs and high mileage weeks with some moderate Tempo-Threshold (LT1 mainly though) miles....that's about it!
The other key factor is: They can't fall on the trail and will still need enough strength to not have a cramp or a total muscle blow-out (that can be solved with a simple Strength Training routine add-on and more vert). Otherwise it's all heart and lung and blood flow efficiency (which elite distance runner already have) and how those relative Running Economy numbers stack up on a "variable trail." However Black Canyon 100km runs pretty consistently as mile splits for a low 8hr there are almost all between 6-min/mile and 9-min per mile pace.
What I would "disrespect" Molly for was if she actually did enter Speedgoat under a fake name a few years ago (if that was true)? That's generally considered very, very against UTMB series rules.
I'm no fan of the Roaches. There is one point I would disagree with thouguh.
Meg literally HAS an MD/PhD. She doesn't need to pretend, she actually has one. If she claims to be a physician without going through residency and passing the board exams, that'd be a straight up lie (has she ever done that?)
Lots of MDs never go into patient care, but go to work in biotech or pharma doing research or product development with their MD. I know of an MD that clears $500k+/yr doing medical device sales.
There's nothing wrong with that and that doesn't negate all the scientific/medical knowledge they acquired in medical school.
David on the other hand... ugh. Enough said.
I’ve been practicing medicine for over 15 years, I can tell you with great certainty that a medical student knows essentially nothing and “getting your MD” is just a piece of paper. Yes selling medical devices can be lucrative career but this is irrelevant to the main point. People love to flash credentials, and Megs is no exception.
You must be fun at parties. She has a PhD in epidemiology too. From Stanford. That doesn't make her an expert on every scientific topic, but you make it sound like she has no credentials. She's as qualified to talk about science that relates to running as any keyboard warrior with an axe to grind who may be a practicing physician. After all, we have a lot of "medical professionals" running around saying kids don't need to even get the traditional routine vaccinations like measles. I'm guessing you're one of them.
Take it back to the Roche thread. This thread is about Molly.
I’ve been practicing medicine for over 15 years, I can tell you with great certainty that a medical student knows essentially nothing and “getting your MD” is just a piece of paper. Yes selling medical devices can be lucrative career but this is irrelevant to the main point. People love to flash credentials, and Megs is no exception.
You must be fun at parties. She has a PhD in epidemiology too. From Stanford. That doesn't make her an expert on every scientific topic, but you make it sound like she has no credentials. She's as qualified to talk about science that relates to running as any keyboard warrior with an axe to grind who may be a practicing physician. After all, we have a lot of "medical professionals" running around saying kids don't need to even get the traditional routine vaccinations like measles. I'm guessing you're one of them.
Take it back to the Roche thread. This thread is about Molly.
Sorry are you some kind of moderator? I’ll say whatever I like, but thanks for weighing in!
Don't worry we'll get back to CTS and Molly soon enough...
Let me just fact check you here: My BS at Cornell was not in "Interior Design" first of all. I kinda wish it was actually...but I wasn't very good at that either! Another fact: I also barely passed "Chemical Engineering" with a C- too! So there's that (for context)....
Yes, I fully admit I said some stupid things in the "Spring Energy case" that were scientifically incorrect (I was confused with molecular weight and if they were using powdered maple syrup and powdered rice and adding concentrated juice later to them vs the actual real foods in relation to the product's volume and actual water weight distribution). But yes, I was totally wrong on several fronts and I greatly regret defending Spring in this regard and saying things that were inaccurate. I fully admit to that and own up it. I chose to cut ties with Spring right after enough 3rd party tests came out (which was a significant financial loss for me).
The Roche's "Awesome Sauce" flavor was the "big 180kcal one" though. I assume Megan and David were about as involved with that as I was with the "Canaberry" flavor (as in we "taste tested" it and talked about the possible ingredient mix very informally). Personally I was not in charge of production and I have no idea what was going on in that kitchen/lab to make those gel flavors so grossly off with their "Nutrition Facts" and relative numbers....
But obviously Megan as a Stanford PhD also didn't blink at the thought that a pretty small gel pouch made of out of mostly just Apple Sauce would have "45g of carbs" in it!....
Spring duped us/me for years probably. I honestly don't even know how i ran some of the ultras and races I did on what was 40-50% less calories (especially carbs!) than I thought I was getting for years....
But back to the point at hand: I agree Molly was not in "2:20s marathon shape" when she ran Black Canyon 100km....but maybe she was in "low 2:30s kinda shape?" Which is better than an Anne Flower has ever run?
It's hard to say how much she can actually improve at this point in her career. You can only learn some much with "nutrition and hydration" and "how to run better technical downhill" as a lot of the value in your relative performance is still tied to all those years of high mileage marathon training and aerobic conditioning that developed that specific running Economy, lactate clearance, and velocity at Vo2max. If anything CTS and Cliff would probably have her do more "Strength Training" to build "muscular fatigue/resistance"... But I really think with talented athletes (high Vo2max, exceptional 10km-marathon racing and training background) it's more just about keeping them from getting injured and making sure they have some consistent mileage volume, moderate Long Runs, and a lot of "LT1/aerobic threshold work" on rolling terrain (hills). Depends on the course/event obviously too.
That being said on Finn's "Singletrack" post before Black Canyon I had compared Molly to Magda Lewy-Boulet in terms of the fact that both were about 5-7 years out from their Olympic Marathons (and 3-5 years out from their actual marathon PRs) when they basically started trail-ultras. Magda had run a 2:26 Marathon in 2010 and then won Western States in 2015...when she was over 40 years old and ran over 19 hours though...
I've always thought it super interesting that very few people in the ultra running community question the fact that Jason Koop did his internship at CTS in 2001 (then formally joined the CTS staff in 2002) at a time when Chris Carmichael was under investigation for doping a minor.
On November 17th 2000, Greg Strock filed a civil lawsuit in federal court accusing Carmichael, René Wenzel and other team personnel of secretly doping him (with cortisone and other substances) while on the USA Junior Cycling Team. Strock alleged that he was administered performance-enhancing drugs without his knowledge during the 1990 season. Similar lawsuits by Erich Kaiter and Gerrik Latta followed in the subsequent years. Related to these claims, in 2006, there were out-of-court settlements of $250,000 with USA Cycling.
As a young coach, I would guess it is important to chose one's mentors carefully. Is Chris Carmichael the kind of person you would chose to be your mentor or your boss! In 2001 when Koop joined CTS, the lawsuit had already been filed and there had been widespread public reporting on the allegations. That's kind of like joining up with Alberto Salazar and NOP in 2015. Who does that? Who joins up with one of the world's best known endurance coaches when they are at the centre of doping allegations?
I think the original poster asks a valid question. Why would Molly Seidel want to be linked with CTS when there are so many other great coaches in the ultra running space?
But obviously Megan as a Stanford PhD also didn't blink at the thought that a pretty small gel pouch made of out of mostly just Apple Sauce would have "45g of carbs" in it!....
Difference is Sage, she was smart enough to stfu about it and not defend Spring. Perhaps she saw the post and immediately realized the numbers added up (or didn't in this case). You didn't. You continued to argue that the gels "had to have more calories" because that's how you felt (#rigorousSCIENCE!) And you made a twitter video with your signature grin mocking a T1 diabetic... somehow you knew better than him. It's why you got spanked bigly during SpringGate and the Roaches didn't. God bless you sir.
We all post about Molly because of a few reasons. First, she won a freaking bronze medal in the Olympic marathon! That literally puts her as one of the most talented US distance runners of all time when you combine it with her NCAA accolades. Second, she is/was very outgoing and a lot of people who have met her really like her and how chill she was!
That said, she has burned a lot of bridges. She failed to get a TUE for Adderall, which she did pop a positive for. It's definitely nefarious that she tested positive for Adderall because she doesn't actually have ADHD. She is incredibly smart as she graduated from Notre Dame with a double major. I'm pretty sure no one actually prescribed her Adderall.
Second, she became very "look at me" about her wokeness and her mental healthy and cast a lot of people who had been supporting her to the side. She says she has eating disorders, OCD, and ADHD, but I disagree. She's freaking bipolar and needs help. Like literal professional-on-the-couch help. The person that everybody thought was super chill and liked is completely gone.
I know of an MD that clears $500k+/yr doing medical device sales.
I know an ex-cornell runner who was like a nutrition major who cleared $1.5+ million in medical devices sales. One of my best buds in the world clears 500+ k a year in medical device sales.
I know an ex-cornell runner who was like a nutrition major who cleared $1.5+ million in medical devices sales. One of my best buds in the world clears 500+ k a year in medical device sales.
I've always thought it super interesting that very few people in the ultra running community question the fact that Jason Koop did his internship at CTS in 2001 (then formally joined the CTS staff in 2002) at a time when Chris Carmichael was under investigation for doping a minor.
On November 17th 2000, Greg Strock filed a civil lawsuit in federal court accusing Carmichael, René Wenzel and other team personnel of secretly doping him (with cortisone and other substances) while on the USA Junior Cycling Team. Strock alleged that he was administered performance-enhancing drugs without his knowledge during the 1990 season. Similar lawsuits by Erich Kaiter and Gerrik Latta followed in the subsequent years. Related to these claims, in 2006, there were out-of-court settlements of $250,000 with USA Cycling.
As a young coach, I would guess it is important to chose one's mentors carefully. Is Chris Carmichael the kind of person you would chose to be your mentor or your boss! In 2001 when Koop joined CTS, the lawsuit had already been filed and there had been widespread public reporting on the allegations. That's kind of like joining up with Alberto Salazar and NOP in 2015. Who does that? Who joins up with one of the world's best known endurance coaches when they are at the centre of doping allegations?
I think the original poster asks a valid question. Why would Molly Seidel want to be linked with CTS when there are so many other great coaches in the ultra running space?
Actually this is very interesting to me....maybe iRunFar and SingleTrack pod should report this kind of information (instead of doing sponsored CTS coverage and posts all the time?!). I did not know that at all ( and Wow Koop has been with CTS for a really long time!). That is crazy with the timing. No wonder he got so pissed when I had mentioned " if you're so good at coaching why wouldn't you have branched off on your own and started your own company instead of hiding under CTS which was essentially built on the lies and doping of Lance Armstrong."
And for the "Spring-gate" record: I did not "bully a Type 1 diabetic." I'm generally very sensitive to these things (being a blood clot survivor myself and knowing what it's like to monitoring blood all the time and having a life threatening condition that can make it hard to run sometimes).... I had merely questioned that their personal blood sugar levels/glucose monitor could be influenced by lots of things and that an "n=1 story" wasn't a definitive science experiment. Spring assured us sponsored athletes internally that "their numbers were correct" even after one of the 3rd party tests came out. Turns out I was wrong. The diabetic was right...and Spring was very short on carbs/calories. I apologized.
Again though, this information with Koop joining CTS while there was an investigation into doping minor (not to mention Lance and those other cases!) is pretty crazy. Thanks for sharing this information.
I know an ex-cornell runner who was like a nutrition major who cleared $1.5+ million in medical devices sales. One of my best buds in the world clears 500+ k a year in medical device sales.
Exactly. It’s a lucrative job but I can tell you after 15 years of dealing with drug reps and device sales reps they are nothing more than salesman, and coincidently lean on the attractive side. Having an MD not only doesn’t help you in this field but now you are stuck paying hundreds of thousands of dollar in debt. Of course Megan Roche is going to flaunt her “double doctor” status to gain credibility on all things science related. This is referred to as the “expert fallacy” and its most effective when directed at lay people.
I've always thought it super interesting that very few people in the ultra running community question the fact that Jason Koop did his internship at CTS in 2001 (then formally joined the CTS staff in 2002) at a time when Chris Carmichael was under investigation for doping a minor.
On November 17th 2000, Greg Strock filed a civil lawsuit in federal court accusing Carmichael, René Wenzel and other team personnel of secretly doping him (with cortisone and other substances) while on the USA Junior Cycling Team. Strock alleged that he was administered performance-enhancing drugs without his knowledge during the 1990 season. Similar lawsuits by Erich Kaiter and Gerrik Latta followed in the subsequent years. Related to these claims, in 2006, there were out-of-court settlements of $250,000 with USA Cycling.
As a young coach, I would guess it is important to chose one's mentors carefully. Is Chris Carmichael the kind of person you would chose to be your mentor or your boss! In 2001 when Koop joined CTS, the lawsuit had already been filed and there had been widespread public reporting on the allegations. That's kind of like joining up with Alberto Salazar and NOP in 2015. Who does that? Who joins up with one of the world's best known endurance coaches when they are at the centre of doping allegations?
I think the original poster asks a valid question. Why would Molly Seidel want to be linked with CTS when there are so many other great coaches in the ultra running space?
Actually this is very interesting to me....maybe iRunFar and SingleTrack pod should report this kind of information (instead of doing sponsored CTS coverage and posts all the time?!). I did not know that at all ( and Wow Koop has been with CTS for a really long time!). That is crazy with the timing. No wonder he got so pissed when I had mentioned " if you're so good at coaching why wouldn't you have branched off on your own and started your own company instead of hiding under CTS which was essentially built on the lies and doping of Lance Armstrong."
And for the "Spring-gate" record: I did not "bully a Type 1 diabetic." I'm generally very sensitive to these things (being a blood clot survivor myself and knowing what it's like to monitoring blood all the time and having a life threatening condition that can make it hard to run sometimes).... I had merely questioned that their personal blood sugar levels/glucose monitor could be influenced by lots of things and that an "n=1 story" wasn't a definitive science experiment. Spring assured us sponsored athletes internally that "their numbers were correct" even after one of the 3rd party tests came out. Turns out I was wrong. The diabetic was right...and Spring was very short on carbs/calories. I apologized.
Again though, this information with Koop joining CTS while there was an investigation into doping minor (not to mention Lance and those other cases!) is pretty crazy. Thanks for sharing this information.
It is indeed very strange that no one has asked Koop why he chose the most notorious doping coach in US cycling history to be his mentor. And it's also strange that no one is asking elite athletes why they have chosen to be coached by such a person (until now).
It seems to me that the vast majority of people in the ultra running community are in total denial about the existence of doping in trail running. And this is a direct result of a failure by trail running media to talk about doping in the sport, and a failure by those making money out of the sport (brands, race organisers) to bring in an effective anti-doping system.
Podcasters and other media outlets only want to put out stories with a positive spin - take Freetrail. It's quite sickening the way Dylan Bowman is using his platform to give dopers a chance to make excuses (he was coached by Koop wasn't he, hmmmm). I'm sure he'll have Ashley Paulson on his show next explaining why she's not really a doper either! I'd much rather listen to a podcast featuring a hard working unsponsored athlete who's making progress and not been caught doping.