There's no place Americans would want to go to because that would mean being amongst people not like yourselves who also probably don't like you. And you wouldn't like them because being xenophobic is as American as apple-pie.
Swiss or Italian alps...there is no better place in the world.
I may have the opportunity to make this decision soon...I have enough money so I can live well anywhere on the planet, am healthy, 60 yrs old, speak passable italian...
it's pretty clear that the USA is going to be a repressive, corrosive place for a good amount of time and we'll have show elections that aren't real anymore. Like Russia, Hungary and Turkey. Live here and deal with that, or go to a functioning democracy with educated people I share values with.
Pretty easy choice. I suspect I will leave America unless the Dems get the house, senate and Presidency by 2028.
If anyone is really serious about this, it's not as easy as you think, and if you can't obtain citizenship in the country you are moving to, it's much riskier than you think.
I spent a good chunk of my early working years in Europe. The first place I worked was Hungary. It was a lovely place and a beautiful country. I had serious plans to purchase a summer home there. At the time, they were relaxing their property ownership rules to allow foreign investment. I'm not sure what the laws are now, but I believe waaaaay back in time when Orban first emerged on the political scene, one of his main promises was to limit or eliminate foreign property ownership. So if I'd purchased property, it's quite possible I'd have already been forced to sell. In other places (Cuba for example), American owned property was simply expropriated. As it happens, although I'm not ethnically Hungarian, my grandparents were from Austro-Hungary, so potentially I could have obtained Hungarian citizenship (I've never looked into it). Or I could have married a Hungarian citizen (almost happened). So I'd advise anyone moving out of the country to pick somewhere that you have a connection that might allow you to get citizenship (or marry a citizen). Otherwise a simple legal change will lead to you becoming a refugee.
I'm married to a woman who has citizenship in two European countries, and both my kids were born in yet another country that has birthright citizenship, so if I ever have to bail on the USA, I have 3 places to go.
I would advise anyone considering this to think about the following: when times are good, everyone is friendly and people are welcome everywhere. When people start getting hungry, they start discriminating against outsiders. When they are starving, they will round up and murder outsiders. It happens everywhere, not just Nazi Germany. If you think the USA is going to go bad, Europe will probably go worse. You're probably best off to stay in the USA where you have connections, people who care about you, and at least enough street smarts and local knowledge to know when you are safe.
My thesis is that the Putinism/Orbanism that is coming to the USA will not impoverish the nation. The one thing this country can't handle is economic distress. And certainly so far, in Trump 1 and Trump 2 the nation has not suffered economically so that is likely to continue.
I think we are post-history in the sense that capitalism is so powerful and so entrenched that we will all continue to be wealthy enough to be comfortable even when politics goes to heck. We're not going to get the poverty of socialism and communism in the USA....we're going to continue to get high living standards...but fewer freedoms and a lot more stress.
Look, heck, even China with its terrible government hasn't prevented global capitalism to make their citizens much richer than before. I don;t think even trump could ruin the powerful mechanism of global capitalism.
Don't underestimate how difficult it is to learn a different language if you have never learned one.
I think it would be unwise to pick a country from a list. You have to have a connection already to that country.
And then a good point to remember is, that every country has downsides. It's not just like one is just a lot better than the other.
Yes, I am sure you are right. I really really don't want to move. But I am feeling that my values are at odds with the direction this country is being led into, and I wonder if it is about to reach a tipping point.
Thank you for highlighting this important consideration though. And though I have visited a handful of other countries, I don't speak their languages. Luckily many of them speak a lot of English.
Lets say that you are not happy with how things are playing out in the US, and you are reviewing your options if you decide you can't live here anymore.
What country would you like to move to? And why?
I'm thinking some of the scandanavian countries, but open to ideas. And don't want to find myself in a similar situation.
Where's it looking good abroad?
The first question to resolve is which country I could move to. You can't just move from one country to another as readily as you can move from one US state to another. If I could resolve that I'd want to go somewhere I can speak the language so it would be another English speaking country or Germany or Austria where I can at least duff along as my ability improves.
Canada seems an obvious choice though I love Ireland and New Zealand. But I'd probably want to be able to visit family in the US and would prefer to be able to drive to do it and maybe watch the sports I do now. Canada seems the best place for those things. And life there is not noticeably different than in the US.
Yeah, I suppose you are right.
The weather there was the downside for me, but I could tolerate Vancouver's. Very good point.
Hate to say, nowhere is safe. The hard right/fascists are on the rise in Western Europe and Eastern Europe is certainly at risk for falling back into Russia's orbit.
France: National Rally / LePen
Germany: AfD
Portugal: Chiga
Italy: Meloni's party is a direct descendent of Mussolini's fascists
UK: Reform
Hungary/Serbia/Slovakia: Orban, Fico, the murderous Serbs
Europe's historic tribalism, xenophobia/racism and resistance to true federalism are rising, cracks showing in EU efforts. How can the EU exist in coming years? How can sanity prevail? I don't see it.
Once US democracy and its buttressing of a rational EU are fully smashed, expect the European monsters to come to the fore. As history has shown, Europeans apply few brakes when it comes to murdering each other.
As bad as it may become in the US, heading to Europe at this point would be jumping from the frying pan and into a coming fire.
Why don't you move to Somalia, Mexico, China, Afghanistan, Nigeria, etc? Or how about Kosovo since you felt it necessary to slander the Serbs, I'm sure you'd find Kosovo a real paradise.
The USA would have been just fine except left wingers decided to open the border completely and let 40 million non-taxpaying illegals come in without the infrastructure to support them, leaving us with high housing costs, high healthcare costs, etc. Now nobody can reasonably afford to live here except for the illegals who live off freebies provided by the government.
In typical leftie fashion, now that you've destroyed your own home, you want to move to someone else's and let their population pick up the tab for your healthcare. Obviously only Europe is acceptable because in the other places I listed, you wouldn't get anything for free and wouldn't be able to survive.
I mean imagine thinking that you deserve some other country's free healthcare after never working a day in your life to contribute to it through your taxes. And, since it's obvious you've never been to Europe, I can't wait to hear about your experience trying to become a legal immigrant there since they have very strict immigration policies for anyone other than the boat people coming across the Mediterranean.
At some point in time you'll be traveling back to the USA to get necessary healthcare procedures that are deemed unnecessary in the "free" healthcare system there. Maybe they'll give you a free euthanasia pill if you move to Canada.
At least you are right about what is happening in Europe. The people there know their economies are doomed and across the entirety of the continent, you're going to see the rise of nationalism because that's what they'll need to do to survive. It's pretty much unavoidable now.
Incoherent gibberish from a virulent right winger. Guessing you were educated in the Oklahoma public schools.
If anyone is really serious about this, it's not as easy as you think, and if you can't obtain citizenship in the country you are moving to, it's much riskier than you think.
I spent a good chunk of my early working years in Europe. The first place I worked was Hungary. It was a lovely place and a beautiful country. I had serious plans to purchase a summer home there. At the time, they were relaxing their property ownership rules to allow foreign investment. I'm not sure what the laws are now, but I believe waaaaay back in time when Orban first emerged on the political scene, one of his main promises was to limit or eliminate foreign property ownership. So if I'd purchased property, it's quite possible I'd have already been forced to sell. In other places (Cuba for example), American owned property was simply expropriated. As it happens, although I'm not ethnically Hungarian, my grandparents were from Austro-Hungary, so potentially I could have obtained Hungarian citizenship (I've never looked into it). Or I could have married a Hungarian citizen (almost happened). So I'd advise anyone moving out of the country to pick somewhere that you have a connection that might allow you to get citizenship (or marry a citizen). Otherwise a simple legal change will lead to you becoming a refugee.
I'm married to a woman who has citizenship in two European countries, and both my kids were born in yet another country that has birthright citizenship, so if I ever have to bail on the USA, I have 3 places to go.
I would advise anyone considering this to think about the following: when times are good, everyone is friendly and people are welcome everywhere. When people start getting hungry, they start discriminating against outsiders. When they are starving, they will round up and murder outsiders. It happens everywhere, not just Nazi Germany. If you think the USA is going to go bad, Europe will probably go worse. You're probably best off to stay in the USA where you have connections, people who care about you, and at least enough street smarts and local knowledge to know when you are safe.
Funny, I said much of the same upthread, but in starker terms, and was downvoted to he!! by the resident right wing kooks. I too have spent much time in Europe, mostly France and Spain, and the people are wonderful but their nativism and racism are always just under the surface. I love it there and we have considered retiring in France but it's clear to me that the Euro Far Right, taking cues and inspiration from the US, is rising fast.
Few in human history have engaged in unbridled tribalism and mass murder the way the Europeans have throughout most of European history. We learned our slavery and genocide from the best. The only truly peaceful period in all of history in Europe has been the 80 years or so since the end of WWII. Right now, Russians are probing, Eastern Europeans are looking hard at whether they 'love' Russia better than Europe, and the far right parties are rapidly gaining support.
The US at least has a history of diversity and we can hope that we course correct at some point in our lifetimes. If Europe continues on its current trajectory I predict mayhem on the Continent. I hope I'm wrong but I'm afraid of being the outsider in France or Spain if poop hits the fan there. I have no doubt expats would suffer in most Euro countries if times get hard there.
I've traveled quite a bit over the years. I think before I moved to another country, I'd consider a change of location in the United States. I live 15 minutes from downtown Nashville, but I could relocate to significantly different weather within 300 miles or a significantly different culture by moving to a small town. You don't have to leave the US entirely to find an entirely different lifestyle.
We get so wrapped on politics in the US that it's easy to forget that most of that BS doesn't affect our day to day lives and on the rare occasions that it does, we can usually adapt and move on. Most of the discord is concern over what *might* happen.
Just turn off the news and go for a run. Hit the gym. Go for a hike with friends. Quit living under the false belief that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Unless you live in a sh!thole and you hate it. In that case, move!
The points you make are important, at least for me. And I think you are getting to the heart of the problem.
I love where I live and would hate to leave.
But follow with me here:
1. I find myself mad all the time, and increasingly so.
2. I feel helpless at bringing about the kind of changes necessary to sway what's happening.
3. I fear that things are just beginning and the fundamental principals on which this country is based may be negated.
4. Leaving a place that is at odds with my beliefs would be one way to protest - or atleast not support - those things.
5. I can't escape a constant bombardment of the news - it evens pops up on my smart watch all day long, and it seems media and the news thrives on this more than ever.
So, I just wonder if the right thing to do, though difficult, is to find someplace else. Again, I can tolerate it now doing the kinds of things you wisely suggest, but I fear it may get to a point where that is no longer the case.
Why don't you move to Somalia, Mexico, China, Afghanistan, Nigeria, etc? Or how about Kosovo since you felt it necessary to slander the Serbs, I'm sure you'd find Kosovo a real paradise.
The USA would have been just fine except left wingers decided to open the border completely and let 40 million non-taxpaying illegals come in without the infrastructure to support them, leaving us with high housing costs, high healthcare costs, etc. Now nobody can reasonably afford to live here except for the illegals who live off freebies provided by the government.
In typical leftie fashion, now that you've destroyed your own home, you want to move to someone else's and let their population pick up the tab for your healthcare. Obviously only Europe is acceptable because in the other places I listed, you wouldn't get anything for free and wouldn't be able to survive.
I mean imagine thinking that you deserve some other country's free healthcare after never working a day in your life to contribute to it through your taxes. And, since it's obvious you've never been to Europe, I can't wait to hear about your experience trying to become a legal immigrant there since they have very strict immigration policies for anyone other than the boat people coming across the Mediterranean.
At some point in time you'll be traveling back to the USA to get necessary healthcare procedures that are deemed unnecessary in the "free" healthcare system there. Maybe they'll give you a free euthanasia pill if you move to Canada.
At least you are right about what is happening in Europe. The people there know their economies are doomed and across the entirety of the continent, you're going to see the rise of nationalism because that's what they'll need to do to survive. It's pretty much unavoidable now.
Incoherent gibberish from a virulent right winger. Guessing you were educated in the Oklahoma public schools.
Jesus dude just realized you wrote BOTH the most bizarre and incoherent post in this entire thread, in response to my extremely well-documented and incisive one, AND one which essentially agreed with most of my points. WTF is your deal man?
Are you a murderous Serb? A fan of Orban or Farage? Not sure what set you off in the first instance but I'd happily compare my knowledge of goings-on in Europe to yours every day of every week.
Maybe you took your meds between the posts. Weird.
I've traveled quite a bit over the years. I think before I moved to another country, I'd consider a change of location in the United States. I live 15 minutes from downtown Nashville, but I could relocate to significantly different weather within 300 miles or a significantly different culture by moving to a small town. You don't have to leave the US entirely to find an entirely different lifestyle.
We get so wrapped on politics in the US that it's easy to forget that most of that BS doesn't affect our day to day lives and on the rare occasions that it does, we can usually adapt and move on. Most of the discord is concern over what *might* happen.
Just turn off the news and go for a run. Hit the gym. Go for a hike with friends. Quit living under the false belief that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Unless you live in a sh!thole and you hate it. In that case, move!
The points you make are important, at least for me. And I think you are getting to the heart of the problem.
I love where I live and would hate to leave.
But follow with me here:
1. I find myself mad all the time, and increasingly so.
2. I feel helpless at bringing about the kind of changes necessary to sway what's happening.
3. I fear that things are just beginning and the fundamental principals on which this country is based may be negated.
4. Leaving a place that is at odds with my beliefs would be one way to protest - or atleast not support - those things.
5. I can't escape a constant bombardment of the news - it evens pops up on my smart watch all day long, and it seems media and the news thrives on this more than ever.
So, I just wonder if the right thing to do, though difficult, is to find someplace else. Again, I can tolerate it now doing the kinds of things you wisely suggest, but I fear it may get to a point where that is no longer the case.
Maybe look for a country with excellent mental heath care?
Switzerland‘s quality of life really is second to none. Almost everything works very well here, at least far better than in most countries. Quality is everywhere you look, from its public transit systems, to the buildings people live in and even the streets themselves. It’s obviously not perfect, but having lived in 5 countries (including the US), Switzerland is by far my favourite. But yes… it‘s expensive. Most people earn enough to lived comfortably though. For anyone considering moving here, learn at least one of the four official languages.
looks like getting a 'retirement visa' for SUI costs around $280,000. That's a lot but heck just a couple months of return from the stock market this year for many.
Italy costs virtually nothing - $30,000 if I read the rules clearly. Not sure I am right on that.
Swiss or Italian alps...there is no better place in the world.
I may have the opportunity to make this decision soon...I have enough money so I can live well anywhere on the planet, am healthy, 60 yrs old, speak passable italian...
it's pretty clear that the USA is going to be a repressive, corrosive place for a good amount of time and we'll have show elections that aren't real anymore. Like Russia, Hungary and Turkey. Live here and deal with that, or go to a functioning democracy with educated people I share values with.
Pretty easy choice. I suspect I will leave America unless the Dems get the house, senate and Presidency by 2028.
Why should I support “democracy”? Would you rather live in a rich country that’s authoritarian or a poor country (anywhere in Europe is poorer than the US, with the possible exception of Norway) that’s a democracy?
Swiss or Italian alps...there is no better place in the world.
I may have the opportunity to make this decision soon...I have enough money so I can live well anywhere on the planet, am healthy, 60 yrs old, speak passable italian...
it's pretty clear that the USA is going to be a repressive, corrosive place for a good amount of time and we'll have show elections that aren't real anymore. Like Russia, Hungary and Turkey. Live here and deal with that, or go to a functioning democracy with educated people I share values with.
Pretty easy choice. I suspect I will leave America unless the Dems get the house, senate and Presidency by 2028.
Why should I support “democracy”? Would you rather live in a rich country that’s authoritarian or a poor country (anywhere in Europe is poorer than the US, with the possible exception of Norway) that’s a democracy?
fair question. I already am a rich man so it's tricky...In Europe I might be able to have a higher lifestyle because my dollars might go farther there.
but there's a catch...if I go to Europe, I'd live in a very expensive place like Rome, London, St Moritz, etc. I would not live in the kind of poor hill town in Southern Italy that drags down the European numbers. So the Europe advantage might weaken in that situation.
But generally, it's a good question. Live in a poorer place but with better politics or a richer place with an authoritarian chaos agent in charge. I'm not sure what the right answer is. Different for everyone I suppose.
I'm sure if you are young and still working and trying to save for retirement, the US is better financially. I'm past that.
I was just in Europe for the 1st time back in May to run the Prague Marathon, I also traveled to other countries, but I'd agree that Switzerland or the Italian Alps would be great choices!