I have visited all. I do have opinions on all of the campuses/locations so I came on here to ask about the programs/running history and general happiness of the teams/students to help me balance things out.
I didn’t like how Dartmouth was in the middle of nowhere kind of like what people have been warning about. I know it’s also freezing cold which I also don’t like. But I did like the culture and people
I liked Providence a lot and thought Brown’s campus was nice but I don’t like the open curriculum or culture as much.
I liked Penn’s campus but I don’t like it in Philly.
I thought Yale was fine. Nothing I really liked or didn’t like. New Haven is just okay
I haven't read through all the jeremiads on this page, but it seems that they're all talking about schools the OP didn't ask about: She's not looking at any potential destinations other than Ivies.
If you're having fun, great, but you're not really contributing to the purpose of the thread.
It’s people who went to tier 2 universities still working off the chip on their shoulder.
“You want to go to a more prestigious university than the one I went to?? Here’s why you’re wrong”
As just a handful of the schools mentioned, Chicago and Duke are not "tier 2" colleges...
I have visited all. I do have opinions on all of the campuses/locations so I came on here to ask about the programs/running history and general happiness of the teams/students to help me balance things out.
I didn’t like how Dartmouth was in the middle of nowhere kind of like what people have been warning about. I know it’s also freezing cold which I also don’t like. But I did like the culture and people
I liked Providence a lot and thought Brown’s campus was nice but I don’t like the open curriculum or culture as much.
I liked Penn’s campus but I don’t like it in Philly.
I thought Yale was fine. Nothing I really liked or didn’t like. New Haven is just okay
I really liked Princeton’s campus and location.
It sounds like you really want Princeton, but you're afraid to go all in bc you don't have admissions support from the coach even though you have a green light from admissions. In the off chance that you don't get in even after the green light, you don't want to be stuck. You don't sound like you are really excited about any of the others.
I personally wouldn't go anywhere that I am not excited about. Option A: ED Princeton and have a back up plan for other safety schools. None of the others is a good fit for you. You even know that. Option B: An ivy isnt the be-all end-all. Find other academic schools with great running cultures in locations where you would be happy. You are a senior, tho, so if this is the plan, you need to act quickly.
Thank you. It helps to know it’s pretty obvious I don’t sound excited about any of them except Princeton. I still do like or really like parts of all of them
I have Princeton admission green light on my test score/grades only as a supported recruit. You think I would get in unsupported based on the green light, but I don’t think the green light means anything for me applying unsupported? Because unsupported I am no longer a special athlete who can be held to a little lower of an academic bar, who is getting in because of running. I have to get in because of something else, and I don’t have anything else compelling, besides the legacy. Correct if that’s wrong!
I agree with what you're saying, but there's a difference between academic quality and schools' reputation / prestige. Notre Dame very well may be as good as some lower Ivies in terms of teaching, but I went to a very competitive (public but nice area) high school and can't think of anyone who turned down any - even Brown or Cornell - for it.
And Duke is similar but better - I don't remember seeing a noticeable preference between Duke / Penn / Columbia / Northwestern among people I knew who were accepted into multiple, but they'd almost always pick it over Brown or Cornell, and basically never turn down one of HYPSM for it...
I, for several reasons, have a different take on Cornell (copy-pasting here from older posts).
(A) Here are the QS World University Rankings for 2024: 1. MIT 2. University of Cambridge 3. University of Oxford 4. Harvard 5. Stanford 6. Imperial College London 7. ETH Zurich 8. National University o Singapore 9. UCL 10. University of California, Berkeley 11. University of Chicago 12. University of Pennsylvania 13. Cornell University 14. The University of Melbourne 15. Caltech 16. Yale University 17. Peking University 17. Princeton University 19. The University of New South Wales 19. The University of Sydney 21. University of Toronto 22. The University of Edinburgh 23. Columbia University . . . 73. Brown University . . . 237. Dartmouth University
Sure, rankings vary considerably and QS emphasizes research.
(B) Cornell, among the Ivies, has the best reputed engineering school plus it is ramping up its still new science-technology campus in New York City (for which it beat Stanford and everyone else in the competition for the free land that New York City offered). Its undergraduate architecture program is often the world's top-ranked, its Vet school is often the world's second- or first-ranked, its Ag school the among world's top-ranked and its more specialized schools, Industrial & Labor Relations and Hotel school, are each almost sui generis.
(C) A high school classmate of mine was very disappointed not to get into the Cornell ALS (Ag & Life Sciences) School as a New York State resident. He went to another Ivy and eventually got an MD at a top 50 med school in the US. But he paid full boat to attend the other Ivy rather than the New York State resident rate to attend Cornell's ALS.
I know you only asked abt these few schools but did you speak with or see any D3s, or did you dismiss them from the start? Given your love of Princeton, Williams, Amherst, Emory, Johns Hopkins, U Chicago could all be great fits. Great running programs, great academics, great alumni networks.
Thank you. It helps to know it’s pretty obvious I don’t sound excited about any of them except Princeton. I still do like or really like parts of all of them
I have Princeton admission green light on my test score/grades only as a supported recruit. You think I would get in unsupported based on the green light, but I don’t think the green light means anything for me applying unsupported? Because unsupported I am no longer a special athlete who can be held to a little lower of an academic bar, who is getting in because of running. I have to get in because of something else, and I don’t have anything else compelling, besides the legacy. Correct if that’s wrong!
I feel you may be overthinking all of this. I know this is big, and Early Decision doesn't make it any easier to decide. I'd only go ED if you 100% knew you wanted to go there, and then have backups planned for the end of the year if you don't hear back. But the vibe I'm getting from your posts is that you're not 100% sold yet on any of them. So why do you have to do ED? Why can't you wait, assess more options, and see what is the best fit for you and just apply for regular decision? Being an Ivy varsity athlete is cool, but your happiness at whatever school you're at (even if running is NOT in the equation) should be the top priority for you. You can take the leap of faith in doing the ED at Princeton. Just remember: it isn't the end of the world if you don't get in AND it isn't the end of the world if you do get in, attend, and find out first hand that it isn't the place/team for you (you can transfer out or drop off from the team).
The QS Rankings metrics are created in a way that favors UK universities that focus on STEM highly cited research and international "prestige". Thus it tends to over rank many UK universities and some American research universities at the expense of highly developed undergraduate offerings in the the U.S. Schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame are dramatically under ranked as class size, outcomes, endowment per pupil and student support are not criteria. Thus, I would take these rankings with a grain of salt. While the OP is set on the Ivies, and particularly Princeton, it would be helpful to also look at Vanderbilt, Wake Forest and Duke (rebuilding year). Others have mentioned NESCAC and Johns Hopkins. Vanderbilt and Duke are Ivy equivalents with better athletic support and Wake seems to be a bit underrated academically. These schools might provide the academic/athletic mix that aligns well. Just my two cents.
I am tempted to wait for Princeton only because I have significant legacy and my sibling applied and got in early recently with this legacy. Family connections there (does this really help a lot?).
Otherwise I wouldn’t consider applying on my own because I would NOT get in. With no legacy at the other Ivies, I 99% cannot get into any of those alone. My academics are good enough but that’s not enough, because you need some “hook” to differentiate yourself from others, which should be running/athlete for me, because that’s what I spent my time on (instead of research, etc).
So I guess I have a small belief legacy will carry me into Princeton and then I can be on the team and it’s all complete.
You said Dartmouth Yale Brown. Thanks for the insight on them. Did you leave Penn out for a reason? Opinion?
IMO Penn has a lot of the intensity of PU, but less of the good stuff. It's a lousy place to distance run. Again, you seem very enthusiastic about PU and if your sibling is having a good time, who am I to say boo against it. All I can say is that I found the place overly hard (especially academically) and too snooty socially. Again, I did fine. I was in the Dial Elm Cannon club. All my good friends would be horrified to hear my truth about PU, but you asked, so I'm telling you. You seem all set for the Ivies, but it's absolutely not too late to look elsewhere. If I could do it over, I'd have chosen Pomona and been a member of a D3 NCAA champion xc team. I'd get a great and mellower school experience, in the Sun and free of all the Ivy, east coast bs. If I'm sticking with the Ivies, Brown is the best imo.
I am tempted to wait for Princeton only because I have significant legacy and my sibling applied and got in early recently with this legacy. Family connections there (does this really help a lot?).
Otherwise I wouldn’t consider applying on my own because I would NOT get in. With no legacy at the other Ivies, I 99% cannot get into any of those alone. My academics are good enough but that’s not enough, because you need some “hook” to differentiate yourself from others, which should be running/athlete for me, because that’s what I spent my time on (instead of research, etc).
So I guess I have a small belief legacy will carry me into Princeton and then I can be on the team and it’s all complete.
You said Dartmouth Yale Brown. Thanks for the insight on them. Did you leave Penn out for a reason? Opinion?
IMO Penn has a lot of the intensity of PU, but less of the good stuff. It's a lousy place to distance run. Again, you seem very enthusiastic about PU and if your sibling is having a good time, who am I to say boo against it. All I can say is that I found the place overly hard (especially academically) and too snooty socially. Again, I did fine. I was in the Dial Elm Cannon club. All my good friends would be horrified to hear my truth about PU, but you asked, so I'm telling you. You seem all set for the Ivies, but it's absolutely not too late to look elsewhere. If I could do it over, I'd have chosen Pomona and been a member of a D3 NCAA champion xc team. I'd get a great and mellower school experience, in the Sun and free of all the Ivy, east coast bs. If I'm sticking with the Ivies, Brown is the best imo.
A critical issue is how important is it to you to be a member of the top 7 on the team, to score points at Heps, etc. Are you just using running to get in and then don't care about that sort of thing. I was a 14 flat 5K runner. That's my talent level. I was solid and credible, but often getting my ass kicked. I realize it sounds whiny, but I think I would have enjoyed running up front in D3 and making critical contributions to the team. I was simply not good enough to do this at PU. Not a laughing stock, by any means, but it would have fun to be a star, and why not? None of us were going to be Jakob, so I say be a big fish in a small pond. Its good for your self esteem!!
Princeton has the best Track and field out of the Ivies. But what do you want to do with your life and where would you like to spend your college years? All Ivies have extreme grade inflation so if you're actually a qualified student without the running, it will be cake. My wife has multiple degrees from Harvard and I have 1 from Brown. We spent time at Wash U and Northwestern along the way. Those last 2 are much more challenging atmospheres compared to Harvard and Brown. For most 18-22 year olds I don't think you can beat the environment of Harvard in the Boston area even if it's the 2nd best university in Cambridge (MIT is far superior). Now that I'm older I choose Brown and they basically don't have any required courses. My son looked at Ivies and we both thought Dartmouth was lousy compared to the rest. You aren't going to make a living with running so I wouldn't choose the location solely on their running program. My personal take H, B, P, Y, Col, Cor, and only go to D if that's your only offer. Seriously Dartmouth isn't bad, it just doesn't compare that well with the others. But I would suggest you seriously consider other schools besides Ivies once you get past Yale.
I work at a private school that sends athletes to all these schools (and a lot of NESCAC as well.) I see a lot of kids who think they know exactly what school they want at the start of the college process, but by the end of the process end up wanting to go somewhere they never thought they would like when they started. Our college counseling department tries to steer kids away from name brand, and toward appropriate program/academic/athletic/social fit. I know the OP is looking for specific advice on her list, I will try to speak to that but will certainly detour...
My first piece of advice is to have someone write down the attributes of each school without the name associated, then see which anonymous school you are most interested in. College admissions are starting to hold "blind college fairs" with the same concept.
My second piece of advice is to spend time on any campus you are interested in. Meet the team, meet the coaches, meet people who aren't involved in athletics. You might find a place that feels like "home", and you will almost certainly find a place you will immediately cross off the list.
My third piece of advice is to look beyond the running program. It seems, based on the Ivy emphasis, like you care about academics so let this weigh heavily (and realistically) in your decision making. You are going to school to be a student who runs, you don't have to go to school to be someone who just runs. Also, ask about academic support for student-athletes, I believe Harvard does not offer academic support for athletes (not sure about other schools.)
My fourth piece of advice is the one that strays furthest from your question. Cast a wide net. NESCACs like Middlebury, Amherst, Williams have excellent name-brand academics (especially Middlebury) and it sounds like you would find success in their running programs. It's not too late to initiate a process with a D3 school, but it might be soon. Don't limit yourself, give yourself options to say "no". Having lots of options can even help you negotiate financial aid packages.
I work at a private school that sends athletes to all these schools (and a lot of NESCAC as well.) I see a lot of kids who think they know exactly what school they want at the start of the college process, but by the end of the process end up wanting to go somewhere they never thought they would like when they started. Our college counseling department tries to steer kids away from name brand, and toward appropriate program/academic/athletic/social fit. I know the OP is looking for specific advice on her list, I will try to speak to that but will certainly detour...
My first piece of advice is to have someone write down the attributes of each school without the name associated, then see which anonymous school you are most interested in. College admissions are starting to hold "blind college fairs" with the same concept.
My second piece of advice is to spend time on any campus you are interested in. Meet the team, meet the coaches, meet people who aren't involved in athletics. You might find a place that feels like "home", and you will almost certainly find a place you will immediately cross off the list.
My third piece of advice is to look beyond the running program. It seems, based on the Ivy emphasis, like you care about academics so let this weigh heavily (and realistically) in your decision making. You are going to school to be a student who runs, you don't have to go to school to be someone who just runs. Also, ask about academic support for student-athletes, I believe Harvard does not offer academic support for athletes (not sure about other schools.)
My fourth piece of advice is the one that strays furthest from your question. Cast a wide net. NESCACs like Middlebury, Amherst, Williams have excellent name-brand academics (especially Middlebury) and it sounds like you would find success in their running programs. It's not too late to initiate a process with a D3 school, but it might be soon. Don't limit yourself, give yourself options to say "no". Having lots of options can even help you negotiate financial aid packages.
Very sound advice. It's absolutely not too late to reach out to top D3 programs. If the athlete's times are compelling these coaches would be more than happy to set up a visit. Princeton is beautiful, but not more so than the Claremont colleges for example.
Princeton has the best Track and field out of the Ivies. But what do you want to do with your life and where would you like to spend your college years? All Ivies have extreme grade inflation so if you're actually a qualified student without the running, it will be cake. My wife has multiple degrees from Harvard and I have 1 from Brown. We spent time at Wash U and Northwestern along the way. Those last 2 are much more challenging atmospheres compared to Harvard and Brown. For most 18-22 year olds I don't think you can beat the environment of Harvard in the Boston area even if it's the 2nd best university in Cambridge (MIT is far superior). Now that I'm older I choose Brown and they basically don't have any required courses. My son looked at Ivies and we both thought Dartmouth was lousy compared to the rest. You aren't going to make a living with running so I wouldn't choose the location solely on their running program. My personal take H, B, P, Y, Col, Cor, and only go to D if that's your only offer. Seriously Dartmouth isn't bad, it just doesn't compare that well with the others. But I would suggest you seriously consider other schools besides Ivies once you get past Yale.
Different strokes for different folks. My kid looked at (and committed) at the Ivies/Nescac and ivy plus.
Absolutely loathed MIT, and wasn’t a fan of Brown, Penn, Columbia Cornell or Amherst. Very strong and clear reactions after visiting.
Loved Princeton, Dartmouth, Stanford and Duke. This is so individualized so that is why asking opinions of randos is not the best way. Yeah use it to suss out programs that have toxic culture or unhappy/cut throat environments but don’t use it to judge or make a final decision on where you’d thrive as a person and student. I also wouldn't wait until the bitter end for Princeton. There really is something to be said of going where you are wanted for both confidence and comfort purposes which can make you thrive.