Not someone who coaches at a large suburban public school or private school. The shear numbers, demographics, and ability to recruit make it too easy for a coach at these types of schools. But someone that produces consistently good XC teams at an under 1k rural or urban public school.
The best high school coach is one that teaches them to be mature adults and sends them off to college prepared and able. Nothing else actually matters.
Not someone who coaches at a large suburban public school or private school. The shear numbers, demographics, and ability to recruit make it too easy for a coach at these types of schools. But someone that produces consistently good XC teams at an under 1k rural or urban public school.
The best high school coach is one that teaches them to be mature adults and sends them off to college prepared and able. Nothing else actually matters.
Don’t the kids have parents that don’t want a coach butting in? They’re responsible for raising their kid and not the coach.
Pat Tyson. Mead High School (Spokane, WA) in the 1990s. Now head coach of Gonzaga's teams.
I had the pleasure of training with his teams for a couple of years (I ran for a smaller local school). He routinely turned out 150 runners and it was his love of the sport and the athletes that had kids turning out.
No coach worthy of this title would think that 4:20 is fast.
What about those that are successful only when they get two families?
Hard to believe people still spout this BS.
Standout Newbury Park High School Performances under Sean Brosnan (excluding Young and Sahlman siblings)
(2022 results include results officially coached by his wife where he wrote the workouts)
Girls 4xMile Relay - National Record Performance: 19:48.58 Athletes: Samantha McDonnell, Ailish Hawkins, Bella Chittenden, and Morgan Nygren Meet: New Balance Nationals Outdoor (June 18, 2022)
Daniel Appleford 3200m: 8:46.43 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 9, 2022) 5k Cross Country: 14:19.46 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Jace Aschbrenner 3200m: 8:44.93 at a Time Trial during Pandemic (May 23, 2020) 5k Cross Country: 14:26 at the Woodbridge Cross Country Classic (September 21, 2019)
Aaron Cantu 3200m: 8:57.62 at the APU Meet of Champions (March 19, 2022)
Dev Doshi 3200m: 9:02.13 at the CIF-SS Division 1 Finals (June 5, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:59.51 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Isabella Fauria 800m: 2:10.96 at the Dublin Distance Fiesta (March 16, 2019) 1600m: 4:55.77 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 23, 2019)
Nicholas Goldstein 3200m: 8:59.19 at the Marmonte League Finals (April 29, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:31.91 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Ailish Hawkins 3200m: 10:20.10 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 8, 2022)
Hector Martinez 5k Cross Country: 14:52.72 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Samantha McDonnell Mile: 4:38.93 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022) 800m: 2:08.06 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 26, 2022)
Brayden Seymour Mile: 4:06.66 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022)
Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships Top 7 boys under 15:00
There are other standout times, but these should cover most of the top performances.
Not someone who coaches at a large suburban public school or private school. The shear numbers, demographics, and ability to recruit make it too easy for a coach at these types of schools. But someone that produces consistently good XC teams at an under 1k rural or urban public school.
The best high school coach is one that teaches them to be mature adults and sends them off to college prepared and able. Nothing else actually matters.
One other thing matters: Do those kids continue running as healthy adults?
The answer is Timo. It isn’t close. He doesn’t kill his guys just to win XC. Every year he has a stud runners on the track, not just a team full of good runners.
Most outstanding coaches in high school produce top individuals, but struggle with the team because they care about X’s and O’s more than they care about building team culture.
Timo has found a way to do both. His runners continue to improve in college and they genuinely love the sport. Not just winning.
Most “great” high school coaches are just crazy humans who build cults. This isn’t just running related, it’s in most sports.
I say this as a person who has coached more state champions than I can count. If my kids wanted to run, I’d move to American Fork.
I'm gonna say the quiet part out loud.....there are no less than 50 coaches in the country that could take AF and replicate that success.
His team is built full of runners that live a very conservative Mormon life, they train at altitude.
American Fork High School has an enrollment of 2,335 students in grades 10-12.....give me a break.....this is like comparing Univ of Texas to Tulane.
Same with Soles at Herriman: Enrollment: 2,415 students. Grades: 10-12.
You think a ton of people could do what Timo does at AF? Our 2nd fastest marathoner, American 25k(weak distance sure) record holder and HS 5k record holder. No other coach has showcased an ability to develop front runners on the boys side who continue to improve as him. If any coaches could do it why dont they? There are several high schools in Utah with over 3000 kids enrolled. It's the 21st largest school in Utah(from what I've found). Definitely seems like there should be quite a few teams better but the only one who is really comparable involves a coach moving from California. Also side note but grades 10-12 tends to mean he only has 3 years to develop them. Simmons improved 24 seconds from freshman to sophomore year(9:29-9:04) and then Improved 30 seconds from sophomore to junior year(9:04-8:34). That's a big jump and not many coaches could make a guy even as talented as him make that big of an improvement.
I'm gonna say the quiet part out loud.....there are no less than 50 coaches in the country that could take AF and replicate that success.
His team is built full of runners that live a very conservative Mormon life, they train at altitude.
American Fork High School has an enrollment of 2,335 students in grades 10-12.....give me a break.....this is like comparing Univ of Texas to Tulane.
Same with Soles at Herriman: Enrollment: 2,415 students. Grades: 10-12.
You think a ton of people could do what Timo does at AF? Our 2nd fastest marathoner, American 25k(weak distance sure) record holder and HS 5k record holder. No other coach has showcased an ability to develop front runners on the boys side who continue to improve as him. If any coaches could do it why dont they? There are several high schools in Utah with over 3000 kids enrolled. It's the 21st largest school in Utah(from what I've found). Definitely seems like there should be quite a few teams better but the only one who is really comparable involves a coach moving from California. Also side note but grades 10-12 tends to mean he only has 3 years to develop them. Simmons improved 24 seconds from freshman to sophomore year(9:29-9:04) and then Improved 30 seconds from sophomore to junior year(9:04-8:34). That's a big jump and not many coaches could make a guy even as talented as him make that big of an improvement.
To run 8:34 and later 13:25, requires an incredible level of talent and it’s not just coaching. Unless there was an altitude effect, he would have run similar times at many at many other high schools.
If your belief is true, how do his Xs and Os for training, differ from other coaches?
What about those that are successful only when they get two families?
Hard to believe people still spout this BS.
Standout Newbury Park High School Performances under Sean Brosnan (excluding Young and Sahlman siblings)
(2022 results include results officially coached by his wife where he wrote the workouts)
Girls 4xMile Relay - National Record Performance: 19:48.58 Athletes: Samantha McDonnell, Ailish Hawkins, Bella Chittenden, and Morgan Nygren Meet: New Balance Nationals Outdoor (June 18, 2022)
Daniel Appleford 3200m: 8:46.43 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 9, 2022) 5k Cross Country: 14:19.46 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Jace Aschbrenner 3200m: 8:44.93 at a Time Trial during Pandemic (May 23, 2020) 5k Cross Country: 14:26 at the Woodbridge Cross Country Classic (September 21, 2019)
Aaron Cantu 3200m: 8:57.62 at the APU Meet of Champions (March 19, 2022)
Dev Doshi 3200m: 9:02.13 at the CIF-SS Division 1 Finals (June 5, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:59.51 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Isabella Fauria 800m: 2:10.96 at the Dublin Distance Fiesta (March 16, 2019) 1600m: 4:55.77 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 23, 2019)
Nicholas Goldstein 3200m: 8:59.19 at the Marmonte League Finals (April 29, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:31.91 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Ailish Hawkins 3200m: 10:20.10 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 8, 2022)
Hector Martinez 5k Cross Country: 14:52.72 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Samantha McDonnell Mile: 4:38.93 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022) 800m: 2:08.06 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 26, 2022)
Brayden Seymour Mile: 4:06.66 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022)
Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships Top 7 boys under 15:00
There are other standout times, but these should cover most of the top performances.
Let’s ignore the fact all these other kids were stand out youth runners before ever coming to NP. Let’s also ignore the fact many of them even being on the team is suspicious at best (see latest NCAA ruling regarding Brosnan tampering). Without the Youngs and Sahlmans, this would be a very good team, but would not be even remotely close to one of the best programs of all time.
You think a ton of people could do what Timo does at AF? Our 2nd fastest marathoner, American 25k(weak distance sure) record holder and HS 5k record holder. No other coach has showcased an ability to develop front runners on the boys side who continue to improve as him. If any coaches could do it why dont they? There are several high schools in Utah with over 3000 kids enrolled. It's the 21st largest school in Utah(from what I've found). Definitely seems like there should be quite a few teams better but the only one who is really comparable involves a coach moving from California. Also side note but grades 10-12 tends to mean he only has 3 years to develop them. Simmons improved 24 seconds from freshman to sophomore year(9:29-9:04) and then Improved 30 seconds from sophomore to junior year(9:04-8:34). That's a big jump and not many coaches could make a guy even as talented as him make that big of an improvement.
To run 8:34 and later 13:25, requires an incredible level of talent and it’s not just coaching. Unless there was an altitude effect, he would have run similar times at many at many other high schools.
If your belief is true, how do his Xs and Os for training, differ from other coaches?
Thats kind of my point. He has had 3 seriously good guys in his time coaching. 2 of them are pros and 1 has taken top 10 at the Olympics. Is he getting guys that are just more talented or is he developing them in a way where they continue to improve at BYU? I am not sure what his training is exactly but I am sure you could find some threads comparing his to other top coaches.
Standout Newbury Park High School Performances under Sean Brosnan (excluding Young and Sahlman siblings)
(2022 results include results officially coached by his wife where he wrote the workouts)
Girls 4xMile Relay - National Record Performance: 19:48.58 Athletes: Samantha McDonnell, Ailish Hawkins, Bella Chittenden, and Morgan Nygren Meet: New Balance Nationals Outdoor (June 18, 2022)
Daniel Appleford 3200m: 8:46.43 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 9, 2022) 5k Cross Country: 14:19.46 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Jace Aschbrenner 3200m: 8:44.93 at a Time Trial during Pandemic (May 23, 2020) 5k Cross Country: 14:26 at the Woodbridge Cross Country Classic (September 21, 2019)
Aaron Cantu 3200m: 8:57.62 at the APU Meet of Champions (March 19, 2022)
Dev Doshi 3200m: 9:02.13 at the CIF-SS Division 1 Finals (June 5, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:59.51 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Isabella Fauria 800m: 2:10.96 at the Dublin Distance Fiesta (March 16, 2019) 1600m: 4:55.77 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 23, 2019)
Nicholas Goldstein 3200m: 8:59.19 at the Marmonte League Finals (April 29, 2021) 5k Cross Country: 14:31.91 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Ailish Hawkins 3200m: 10:20.10 at the Arcadia Invitational (April 8, 2022)
Hector Martinez 5k Cross Country: 14:52.72 at the Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships (December 4, 2021)
Samantha McDonnell Mile: 4:38.93 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022) 800m: 2:08.06 at the Azusa Meet of Champions (March 26, 2022)
Brayden Seymour Mile: 4:06.66 at the Brooks PR Invitational (June 15, 2022)
Garmin RunningLane Cross Country Championships Top 7 boys under 15:00
There are other standout times, but these should cover most of the top performances.
Let’s ignore the fact all these other kids were stand out youth runners before ever coming to NP. Let’s also ignore the fact many of them even being on the team is suspicious at best (see latest NCAA ruling regarding Brosnan tampering). Without the Youngs and Sahlmans, this would be a very good team, but would not be even remotely close to one of the best programs of all time.
When I consider how good NP was I tend to just count 1 Young and 1 Sahlman. Makes it easier to compare how good NP really was.
The answer is Timo. It isn’t close. He doesn’t kill his guys just to win XC. Every year he has a stud runners on the track, not just a team full of good runners.
Most outstanding coaches in high school produce top individuals, but struggle with the team because they care about X’s and O’s more than they care about building team culture.
Timo has found a way to do both. His runners continue to improve in college and they genuinely love the sport. Not just winning.
Most “great” high school coaches are just crazy humans who build cults. This isn’t just running related, it’s in most sports.
I say this as a person who has coached more state champions than I can count. If my kids wanted to run, I’d move to American Fork.
I'm gonna say the quiet part out loud.....there are no less than 50 coaches in the country that could take AF and replicate that success.
His team is built full of runners that live a very conservative Mormon life, they train at altitude.
American Fork High School has an enrollment of 2,335 students in grades 10-12.....give me a break.....this is like comparing Univ of Texas to Tulane.
Same with Soles at Herriman: Enrollment: 2,415 students. Grades: 10-12.
Congratulations, you have won the dumbest post of the day award! Please pick up your prize at your mother's basement.
To run 8:34 and later 13:25, requires an incredible level of talent and it’s not just coaching. Unless there was an altitude effect, he would have run similar times at many at many other high schools.
If your belief is true, how do his Xs and Os for training, differ from other coaches?
Thats kind of my point. He has had 3 seriously good guys in his time coaching. 2 of them are pros and 1 has taken top 10 at the Olympics. Is he getting guys that are just more talented or is he developing them in a way where they continue to improve at BYU? I am not sure what his training is exactly but I am sure you could find some threads comparing his to other top coaches.
13:25 is a maxed out achievement for a HS runner. It’s significanty faster than 5000m run by Lindgren, Ritz, Rupp and the Youngs. I know that 4:20 isn’t that fast but he ran three of them back to back.It’s ridiculous to think he could be faster than all the greats while not giving his best.
What’s in it for the coach, anyway? If he holds them back in HS, and they improve at BYU, does he receive a bonus? Does this phenomenon occur for other colleges?
Training seriously in HS isn’t that big of an injury risk and is not likely to result in someone reaching a lifetime peak. Improvement in college will come from continued physical maturation.
Thats kind of my point. He has had 3 seriously good guys in his time coaching. 2 of them are pros and 1 has taken top 10 at the Olympics. Is he getting guys that are just more talented or is he developing them in a way where they continue to improve at BYU? I am not sure what his training is exactly but I am sure you could find some threads comparing his to other top coaches.
13:25 is a maxed out achievement for a HS runner. It’s significanty faster than 5000m run by Lindgren, Ritz, Rupp and the Youngs. I know that 4:20 isn’t that fast but he ran three of them back to back.It’s ridiculous to think he could be faster than all the greats while not giving his best.
What’s in it for the coach, anyway? If he holds them back in HS, and they improve at BYU, does he receive a bonus? Does this phenomenon occur for other colleges?
Training seriously in HS isn’t that big of an injury risk and is not likely to result in someone reaching a lifetime peak. Improvement in college will come from continued physical maturation.
He's not holding back his training is just super similar to what the guys at BYU do. So for the athletes that go there its basically just a continuation of their HS training which helps with improving at the next level. I agree that HS training does not usually affect your peak later on and when most athletes don't improve in college its either do to outside factors(getting a job, focusing on school etc) or major changes in training(low to high volume etc).
Congratulations, you have won the dumbest post of the day award! Please pick up your prize at your mother's basement.
Doug,
I also thought that insight from him was silly and inappropriate. Having a larger student body may give a coach a better pool of kids to choose from, but it says nothing about him personally as a coach. Good and bad coaches exist at ALL school sizes and all levels of this sports. A coach who takes a small school to a title has equal bragging rights as a coach who takes a large school to a title.
How do you know this? It's not correct anyway. Bruce's career started in the 70s, he had many fast dudes. Plus, when stacked up against similar competition, his teams were nearly unbeatable.
The OP was looking for coaches that had success at non prototypical CC powerhouse schools (private, large-wealthy-suburban with "loose" attendance boundaries)
I was referring to his time at Riverbank and got the times for guys other than Fernandez from Athletic.net. At least while he was at Riverbank, he couldn’t pull great runners from out of a hat.
Most of Bruce's coaching career predates athletic.net. In our area, 2007 or 2008 was the first year that almost every meet ended up in that database. Trust me, the guy is good at getting the most out of his athletes.
AND
If you know anything about our area, teams from Riverbank are unfortunately competing with the deck stacked against them on a number of fonts. That being said, their track and cross programs have consistenlty overperoformed all of their other athletic programs because they've had a series of very dedicated, competent coaches.
To be sure, guys like Soles, Mostert, Brosnan are great coaches that know how to get the most out of their athletes, however, they are also the benficiaries of a number of tailwinds and I honestly don't know how they'd fare at a small rural school or a small school in an economically depressed area. My supposition is that there are a number of good coaches out there that nobody has ever heard of because they simply don't have access to large numbers of well resourced kids from supportive homes, who have been through a good feeder program, who may or may not lead clean mormon no alcohol lives and who may or may not live at altititude.