who have brojo reported for epo?

It's not a joke when someone calls into question the basic integrity of the status quo. I don't think this is about outing any one individual, any period of time, or any particular club, but about understanding the nature of a very complex web that entangles the guilty, the not so guilty and the naive. I don't think this is about identifying names, creating Congressional committees, or making scapegoats (can you imagine a Congressional committee promulgating rules for track and field?). This is about resurrecting the belief that we can admire the incredible accomplishments of our athletes without reservation.

He reported Elg, forcing him into an early retirement.

Since there isn't enough evidence to ban this person, it would be nice if they were named so that a letsrun vigilante group could go rough them up a bit.

renato, there were some good questions about shaheen's training which you posted on another thread. When you have some minutes free could you answer. this might help people understand better

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1358082&page=0

"At least, I know that somebody takes some drug (I don't know whom, but somebody of sure tries), but I continue to think that this DOPING IS USELESS FOR ENHANCING his performance. If an athlete is very strong mentally, for being in the top of the World with the athletics of today, of sure he doesn't need any external help."

Renato ,if you beileve this ststement you are kidding yourself. After reading your book on marathoning and how to train, I know you know the great physiological benefits of doping. Yet I don't understand how you can say this.

Once you have gotten to this point you make it seem ethical to dope. "well if its not really giving me an edge, then i might as well do it." Then you have the likes of Lumbard who truly believed it was him running these world class times when it was really the drugs.

Anyhow if I'm reading this wrong i appologize, but those are my thoughts

Doodie, may be because English is not my language, but I don't understand very well what you want to say. I know that, with mentally weak people, doping can be the key for becoming psychologically stronger, and for this reason able to do very tough training, that, before doping, they didn't have the courage to try.

But I know that, with my athletes, I go to very tough training in natural way, increasing "pole pole" (step by step) both volume and quality of training, and everything becomes so naturally that, for nobody, their final tough workouts are less tough than their easier workouts of long time before. This is the only road that I know, and this worked with Italians, Ukrains, Kenyans, Ugandans, Tanzanians. I have a lot of example of people able to build their career using many years, improving a little every period of training, having patience to await without the anxia to reach top level in short time.

The mental behavior is the most important thing. Personally, I work because my athletes CAN FEEL STRONGER BECAUSE ARE CLEAN, SO THEIR STRENGTH COMES FROM INSIDE THEMSELVES, NOT FROM OUTSIDE. Last year in Helsinki, ALL my athletes were able to increase their personal best during World Championships :

1- Shaheen and Dorcus Inzikuru won the title

2- Moses Mosop took bronze with his PB of 27:08

3- Zakia Mrisho of Tanzania had a PB of 15:25 till one month before, after ran 15:03 in Stockholm obtaining the limit, then 14:57 in the heats and 14:43 in the final, less than one meter from bronze medal

4- Rita Jeptoo improved from 2:28:11 to 2:24:22

5- Alex Malinga (Ugandan having 2:14:48 of PB) after training from the end of March for WCh, was n. 6 in the final with hie new PB of 2:12:12.

6- Jeruto Kiptum won bronze medal in 3000 steeple with her PB of 9:26.

This is because they believe in themselves, not in something coming from outside. This is my system, and I don't see any reason because I have to change my idea about doping. People using doping are stupid persons, without any selfconfidence, with around other stupid and not honest persons. Look what is happening inside Italian Soccer : a lot of general corruption, at top level, from people that till yesterday were a "model" of intelligence and behavior. I always think that, when somebody wants to be too smart, becomes stupid. If you can educate not only the athletes, but anybody, in respecting other people and yourself, you can have a better generation, clear people, without thinking that the final success and money are the most important things in the World. I want that my athletes can have this type of motivation. That's the reason because I don't believe in the effects of doping. The best doping for everybody is to be in peace with himself, using all his energies for something that believes is right.

Doodie, may be because English is not my language, but I don't understand very well what you want to say. I know that, with mentally weak people, doping can be the key for becoming psychologically stronger, and for this reason able to do very tough training, that, before doping, they didn't have the courage to try.

But I know that, with my athletes, I go to very tough training in natural way, increasing "pole pole" (step by step) both volume and quality of training, and everything becomes so naturally that, for nobody, their final tough workouts are less tough than their easier workouts of long time before. This is the only road that I know, and this worked with Italians, Ukrains, Kenyans, Ugandans, Tanzanians. I have a lot of example of people able to build their career using many years, improving a little every period of training, having patience to await without the anxia to reach top level in short time.

The mental behavior is the most important thing. Personally, I work because my athletes CAN FEEL STRONGER BECAUSE ARE CLEAN, SO THEIR STRENGTH COMES FROM INSIDE THEMSELVES, NOT FROM OUTSIDE. Last year in Helsinki, ALL my athletes were able to increase their personal best during World Championships :

1- Shaheen and Dorcus Inzikuru won the title

2- Moses Mosop took bronze with his PB of 27:08

3- Zakia Mrisho of Tanzania had a PB of 15:25 till one month before, after ran 15:03 in Stockholm obtaining the limit, then 14:57 in the heats and 14:43 in the final, less than one meter from bronze medal

4- Rita Jeptoo improved from 2:28:11 to 2:24:22

5- Alex Malinga (Ugandan having 2:14:48 of PB) after training from the end of March for WCh, was n. 6 in the final with hie new PB of 2:12:12.

6- Jeruto Kiptum won bronze medal in 3000 steeple with her PB of 9:26.

This is because they believe in themselves, not in something coming from outside. This is my system, and I don't see any reason because I have to change my idea about doping. People using doping are stupid persons, without any selfconfidence, with around other stupid and not honest persons. Look what is happening inside Italian Soccer : a lot of general corruption, at top level, from people that till yesterday were a "model" of intelligence and behavior. I always think that, when somebody wants to be too smart, becomes stupid. If you can educate not only the athletes, but anybody, in respecting other people and yourself, you can have a better generation, clear people, without thinking that the final success and money are the most important things in the World. I want that my athletes can have this type of motivation. That's the reason because I don't believe in the effects of doping. The best doping for everybody is to be in peace with himself, using all his energies for something that believes is right.

I suppose that what is strange for the most part of people is to read about 37 km of fast long run for a specialist of 3000 st, less than one month before winning WCh.

I want to try to explain, with some simple point, my training phylosophy, but before I have to give some info about my professional career. I was National Coach, in Italy, of 400m when I was very young (1971-74), of Decathlon for 10 years, and after of Marathon for Women, before becoming responsible of Middle / Long distances with Luciano Gigliotti. So, my knowledge of weight training and about the influence of some type of training over other qualities comes from the period with decathlonists.

a) I strongly believe that we need a very large aerobic base for every distance where endurance is important. But I speak about SPECIFIC ENDURANCE, not GENERAL ENDURANCE.

b) My phylosophy is simple : POWER is something that you have from mama and papa, and that you can increase only in very little percentage. ENDURANCE to your personal POWER is something that you can increase a lot using specific training in that direction. So, for every event the most important part of training is to work for increasing your POWER ENDURANCE or SPECIFIC ENDURANCE.

This, for me, is valid also for 100m. I give you an example : look the career of Ben Johnson, forgetting if he was doped. At 18 years of age, he was able running in 10.80 about. At 28, in 9.79. If we put this two Johnsons in the same race, the final difference is about 11m. But, if we want to see the difference after 50m, the young Johnson could run 6.60, the top Johnson 6.40 (2 meters of difference). This means that, with 10 years of training and a lot of doping (I suppose AFTER 18 years), Johnson was able to increase his POWER (top 50m) of 2m (4% about), and his SPECIFIC ENDURANCE during the second half of the race of 9 meters (18% about). So, for sprint also the secret is to work for EXTENDING THE DURATION of your POWER.

c) We have 2 different motors : one is the biomechanical engine that has to develop our power and our speed (muscles), the other is the bioenergetical engine, that has to guarantee the duration of our effort. Of course, there is a very strict connection between these two engines. But the percentage of using changes for every person and every distance. If I have to train a sprinter, my first goal is to increase the power of the biomechanical engine, and to train the ability in better working using the same quantity of energy (improving technique). If I have to train a Marathon runner, my first goal is to reduce the consumption of fuel at the speed of my Marathon, because the main problem is energetical. In the middle, there are all the other events.

d) Because we are speaking about activities of endurance, we need to emphatize aerobic training in order to create the best base for SPECIFIC TRAINING. At the same time, we continue to train the other engine, USING EXERCISES FOR IMPROVING NEUROMUSCULAR SYSTEM. Don't forget that the ability of recruiting the higher quantity of fibres for every muscle is very important also for a Marathon runner. This is the reason of short sprint uphill : don't look for speed, but for ability in recruitment. When a fibre doesn't work for too long time, it becomes not able to work when you need.

e) We need a long period (about 8-10 years) for building our AEROBIC HOUSE. During this period, we must continue to increase our mileage but, at the same time, our ability in intensity. We are not speaking about ABSOLUTE SPEED, because we don't need, but about the EXTENSION of an high percentage of speed. An example : if you are an 800m runner with 11.0 of PB in 100m, 22.2 in 200, 49.0 in 400 and 1:52 in 800, your training must have the goal not to improve to 10.8 (that's useless), but to become able running 22.0 / 48.0 / 1:49, and after this, 11.0/22.0/47.0/1:46.5. This is possible working about 95% of your max speed (if 11.0 is 100%, 12.1 is 90% of your time, and 11.55 is 95%), increasing the global volume at that speed, the length of single intervals (for example, 5 times 200 in 23.0 can become 4 times 300 in 35.0 and then 3 times 400 in 49.0) and reducing recovery time. So, we work for increasing both LACTIC CAPACITY and LACTIC ENDURANCE, that are two different qualities, the first one connected with LACTIC POWER, the second one with AEROBIC POWER. Working in the second direction, we can also increase our Anaerobic Threshold.

I come back on this arguments later.

I still think it's Tergat.

Renato didn't you say that you don't care for Rosa's character?

I think its pathetic to post on a website that you know someone is guilty and then try and hang onto the identity like a fat kid with all the candy...Why bother posting it in the first place??

Put it out there or dont but dont put half of it out there .All you have achieved is making us suspect about 40 athletes of being guilty. What exactly are you doing for the sport by doing this?

I don't like Rosa's character, but, apart this fact, I admire the intelligence of the person, the ability in looking for something new, the ability in building a group and in having big projects. I consider Gabriele Rosa a man over the average of the most part of people. I consider Rosa a man with passion, a big motivator, and personally I think that he's clean with his athletes. I cannot say that he's one of my friends, but I deeply respect his qualities. And, about Paul Tergat, I suppose that he is over any suspicion, exactly like Gebre, Bekele and Shaheen.

Thanks for this Renato. And i'm looking forward to understanding the 25km at 3:10/km and long run rationale for Shaheen when you have some more time.

Thanks for the reply Renato. I hope that you are right. I know that athletes can reach the top without illegal aid.

But then again I know that there is a lot of corruption at the top and that one of the easiest ways of dealing with this corruption is to be in denial about the problem.

I trust Wejo's judgement and I understand his frustration that it is almost impossible to catch the top sports earners who cheat. They are nearly always one step ahead of the testers. As for EPO, it is easy for people to avoid detection, and the problem that started in 1988 with that drug has never gone away. A more reliable test is needed.

tester wrote:

I think its pathetic to post on a website that you know someone is guilty and then try and hang onto the identity like a fat kid with all the candy...Why bother posting it in the first place??

Put it out there or dont but dont put half of it out there .All you have achieved is making us suspect about 40 athletes of being guilty. What exactly are you doing for the sport by doing this?

Exactly. Isn't that what I wrote several times over? But if you want to know why he is doing it, I already suggested one possibility:

I don't think wejo is as concerned with getting ONE cheater busted as he is with casting doubt on the East Africans in general. I think he has always highly doubted the explosion of great performances they have done over the last 10-15 years. So, by smearing a larger group, he accomplishes his desire to cast doubt the on the innocence of the East Africans in general.

And of course Renato completely contradicted wejo's assertion that there is no (or virtually no) out of comp testing in Africa.

Wejo, care to comment? Your below comment and Renato's below comment contradict one another ? Who is correct? You both may have agendas, but Renato certainly would seem to be more of expert on this than you-

Wejo wrote ]/b]

"African runners have been busted for EPO in the past despite the lack of effective out of competition testing in the region."

Renato wrote:

"Everybody can be guilty, but, please, don't think that in Kenya there are less antidoping control than in US or in Europe. Instead, the opposite situation is the truth. For example, we have in Iten and Eldoret about 10/15 tests out of competition every week. My athletes of Qatar (from Shaheen to Ahmed Hassan, with Nicholas Kemboi, James Kwalia, Mubarak Shami, Musa Obaid, Jamal Bilal Salem and Dahman Bashir) were tested not less than 5 times each one from December to March. My African athletes (Dorcus Inzikuru, David Chemweno, Moses Mosop, Philip Manyim, Rita Jeptoo, Selina Kosgei, Mark Bett, Jeruto Kiptum) and other athletes with me connected but not coached directly by me (Bungei, Yiampoy, Komen, Simotwo, Irene Kwambai, Ines Chenonge, and I'm sure that I forget somebody) had 4-5 tests each one. When the group of WADA (that normally comes with 2 doctors from South Africa) and/or of IAAF antidoping control comes to Iten, I know that everytime they test Isaac Songok, Augustine Choge, Eliu Kipchoge, Benjamin Limo, Benjamin Maiyo and sometime Lorna Kiplagat too. So, everything is possible, but don't think that controls is Kenya are easier than is US and Europe."

Are the KIMbia athletes tested?

May be that I'm not able to be clear, so I explain again the system of antidoping control.

ALL THE ATHLETES in TOP 20 in the World, at the end of one season, for the next season must fill a form called WHEREABOUT. In this form, they have to write where they are EVERY DAY for 3 months. There are 4 whereabouts during every season. One month before the end of one whereabout, athletes (normally managers, because the form is very complicated and I don't know any athlete able to fill it by himself)must fill the next whereabout.

The WADA group of controllers, or the IAAF group (that are 2 different groups), or sometime also governative groups (for example, in Italy and, I suppose, in France there are also special task forces for antidoping, directly following the laws of these Countries), arrive without any information, suddenly, and, if they don't find the athletes where their whereabouts informs that they are, they can have a missed test. With the current rule, AFTER 3 MISSED TESTS IN 5 YEARS YOU ARE BANNED FOR 1 YEAR.

Regarding African athletes, the main risk is not that they are doped, but that they can have some missed test, because normally they move everywhere without informung their manager and, sometime, the coach. When I'm in Iten, 2-3 times a week I must send an update for many athletes directly to the Antidoping Office of IAAF, informing that, for example during week-end, they are in some place far from the Camp for joining their family, or something like this.

So, you can have some suspicion regarding athletes out of top 20 in the World, but not about athletes in top 20. All these, in every Country, are tested a lot of time everywhere. For example, last year in Helsinki, the day before the heats of 3000 steeple for ladies, Dorcus Inzikuru beated a World record, being tested 3 times in 1 hour, by WADA, IAAF and a Finnish commission, and always taking blood. At the end she came almost crying to me, telling "How can I do without all my blood ?", and I answered her that, because the final was after 4 days, her body could produce a lot of new cells, so she had to be hundred per cent in wonderful shape.....

name the name is the great east african a** kisser Sir Lancelot.

Renato, it is easy for athletes to take EPO and beat the test. EPO is still used in cycling, it never went away.

Can be easy if you know WHEN the control comes. But, in case of out of competition controls, cannot be easy, because the only way to be sure is not taking anything.

I really am not interested in the system for making EASY tha assuntion of EPO cheating the controls, but, reading about cyclism, I suppose that one way is to take some pharmac for diluing (making more liquid, because I don't know if diluing is an existing word...) your blood. This system can work in short time, but cannot be used like routine. In cyclism, athletes of some year ago, during big stage races (like Tour or Giro d'Italia), used to take flebos with glucose and water intravein in order to reduce their viscosity and also to reintegrate their dehydratation. But in athletics this system cannot work, because you don't know if and when you can have your control. Can you really suppose that some African, normally without doctors at home, can be so "scientific" to use very expensive pharmacs (that nobody knows) awaiting, may be, some control that nobody knows when can arrive ? And WHEN can use, HOW LONG can use, WHERE can use this system ? I suppose that in US there are too many people reading spy and/or yellow stories, not having any connection with the reality.