I don't know. I just believe that this has always been a bad excuse. The GOATs: Bekele, El G, Kipchoge, Rudisha, etc. Were those guys ever content with losing during the regular season? No. They were champions who wanted to win ever damn race in the regular season and the championships. I just think that "training through it" has always been a lame excuse. Yes the Olympics and World Championships are the most important races, but the rest of the season doesn't matter? Why? El G barely ever lost. Same with Edwin Moses. Dominating the event should be celebrated and encouraged. Using the training block excuse sounds weasley and cowardly to me.
lets face it, Hocker is great and won the race of the century, but he's not at the level of those guys you mentioned. The closest ones to them are a certain Norwegian and a certain retired British (who is pretty much universally hated on this board btw).
I agree with high school xc coach that he's no American Ingrebrisen. In fact, he's more like Kerr, who almost always runs his best race in a championship final, but never churnning out great performances week in week out like Jakob. And the guys you mentioned (and Jakob) are definitely outliers, even among the top.
Fair enough, but I was responding to the poster who said he is "training through it". That's always seemed like a loser's excuse to me. Literally everyone in the race is in a heavy training block, so that can't be used as an excuse for Cole losing every race so far this season.
I don't necessarily buy the idea that Cole is not or cannot be one of the greats I mentioned. You would agree that El G hated losing so much that you could see it immediately after the race was over? He'd be in tears or look devastated. He was so freakishly competitive that you could make the case that he was the Michael Jordan of mid distance racing. He HATED losing.
The same with Jakob and the same with someone like Paula Ratcliffe. If Edwin Moses had to race a bunch of nobodies in an open race at a small town track meet, you bet your behind he would run to win even if there was nothing to gain. It was who he was. These guys and gals needed to win like a tree needs CO2 or a fish needs water. They would never even consider for one second that a race was not important enough to win. Winning is what they did.
I feel like Cole needs to take a look at the past and adopt the heros of the sport no losing attitude if he wants to be one of the greats. And I get the feeling he does. He has plenty of upside. If he's serious about contending in longer distances, Bekele couldn't run 3:27 or even 7:23, so he's already got a huge speed endurance advantage. He can be Ingebrigtsen if he lights that fire under his belly and absolutely refuses to lose. He has all the tools, he just needs to become an obsessed warrior like Michael Jordan.
Hocker tried to run 12:50 pace and he blew up. I think he was prepared to PR but wasn’t prepared to go out that fast. Going out slightly slower than his PR pace and closing the last k suits his style more so than trying to go out at a pace he’s never run before in a 5k. I think he will be fine in a championship style setting but we shall see. Anyone who’s run a 5k at the HS/college level have all experienced that feeling of dying in a 5k 2nd half. It’s the worst. He still has many years ahead to develop that aerobic engine. The guy who won is 30 years old so don’t think Hocker has reached his 5k peak yet.
Ridiculous take and there’s so many historical examples to the contrary it’s almost not worth mentioning. Nobody remembers Billy Mills? Bob Schul? Noah Ngeny? Dave Wottle? You must be new to the sport.
They made their marks when talent wasn't as flooded as it is today. Big difference. We have a high schooler running a sub 4 mile almost every year now. It would be easy to name every high school sub 4 miler if this was 2010.
You're evading Membrane's rebuttal. He's providing you with examples of gold medal winners who are all remembered despite not being successful for the most part outside of one Olympic victory. So he is disputing your contention that nobody will remember Hocker if he is a one hit wonder, since that is clearly not the case historically of others.
You're also making assumptions about the talent pool and discounting how much of an effect the advanced shoes, training approaches, and other factors are having an effect on faster times and more runners running them. I would be willing to bet the talent pool hasn't changed much.
I am worried that he is frying himself with this constant racing. He has always been a guy who thrives on building a perfect peak. Cool experiment though. It's been fun watching him race every other week.
No, I think this was a good race for him and a good race distance to get better at. All too often, people in the current era decide to specialize in just one distance and call it quits after a sub-par race. This can be a good intermediate challenge for Hocker in a non-Olympic year.
It is perfectly okay to be defeated and have a bad race. Good time to learn and grow.
yea not sure why the choice of 5k after running 8/15's. His aerobic system somewhat compromised when trying to get to 1:44/43 shape. This will give his coach good info and I suspect an aerobic refresh before his next big 1500
It's exactly because he has a somewhat compromised aerobic system that he ran this race. He said in an interview that he wants to double in the 15/5, but because of Grand Slam he was forced to train for pure speed all spring. He had no real idea of where is 5k fitness was before today, so he jumped in this race. Now that he knows, he can spend the summer building up for summer finals. Obviously, the US 5k team will be incredibly hard to make, but we're jumping the gun on whether he should just give up on the whole thought process.
worth repeating.
three weeks of aerobic quality mixed with recovery
the speed is not going to take much work to bring back from the near past
this unusual mix of racing certainly makes it fun as a fan to handicap
Kerr might me in an aerobic training block, and come in with perhaps his best season?
who knows?
fun.
that said, it never ceases to amaze the veterans like a rojo that press the panic button after a race or two, not considering the context.
this Johnathan fellow seems to have a more sober handle.
Can't entirely disagree here. There are enough similarities. Centro performed big on the biggest stage but had trouble competing with the best during the regular season. Cole actually has more work to do to catch Centro because in addition to Centro winning Gold in Rio, remember he also won gold indoors once and medalled at world outdoors twice. He was the consummate championship racer.
Where I would disagree is that Cole has beaten stronger competition at the Olympics, and has the Olympic 1500m record, and stands at number 2 all time for indoor 3k at 7:23. Centro couldn't run that fast if his life depended on it, even with the enhanced shoes. As others have said, even if Cole never wins anything again, it would be difficult to make the case he hasn't somehow massively achieved.
Now to finally answer the thread question, the evidence we've seen is that Cole just is not strong enough at 5k to hang with the best in this insanely competitive era. Just like last season in his 5ks, in Stockholm he lost contact with the leaders and was never a factor. He's similar to his training partner Cooper Teare; good but not great at 5k.
If he's serious about ever making the US 5k team, he may need to actually focus just on 5k training and throw all his chips in. Trying to double the 15 and 5 looks impossible these days and you can't use Jakob as an example because he's gotten smoked in the 15 at major championships the last few years. It doesn't seem reachable for Cole to medal at both events. He probably will need to pick one. You would think he would just focus on the 1500 considering his far superior success at that distance. Maybe try to get his 800 pb down a little bit when he starts sharpening before Tokyo.
Well people often downplay the field that Centro defeated in Rio in 2016. But the field did include a man who had an Olympic Gold and 3 World Championship Golds at 1500 (along with being the 3rd fastest performer in history). It included a man who had an Olympic Gold at 1500m, and a World Championship Silver at 1500m, and earned an Olympic Silver at 1500m in Rio. It included a man who had an Olympic Silver at 1500m and earned an Olympic Bronze in the Rio 1500m. It included a man with a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. It included a man with a World Championship Bronze at 1500m and a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. So maybe it wasn’t too bad a field that Centro beat.
Can't entirely disagree here. There are enough similarities. Centro performed big on the biggest stage but had trouble competing with the best during the regular season. Cole actually has more work to do to catch Centro because in addition to Centro winning Gold in Rio, remember he also won gold indoors once and medalled at world outdoors twice. He was the consummate championship racer.
Where I would disagree is that Cole has beaten stronger competition at the Olympics, and has the Olympic 1500m record, and stands at number 2 all time for indoor 3k at 7:23. Centro couldn't run that fast if his life depended on it, even with the enhanced shoes. As others have said, even if Cole never wins anything again, it would be difficult to make the case he hasn't somehow massively achieved.
Now to finally answer the thread question, the evidence we've seen is that Cole just is not strong enough at 5k to hang with the best in this insanely competitive era. Just like last season in his 5ks, in Stockholm he lost contact with the leaders and was never a factor. He's similar to his training partner Cooper Teare; good but not great at 5k.
If he's serious about ever making the US 5k team, he may need to actually focus just on 5k training and throw all his chips in. Trying to double the 15 and 5 looks impossible these days and you can't use Jakob as an example because he's gotten smoked in the 15 at major championships the last few years. It doesn't seem reachable for Cole to medal at both events. He probably will need to pick one. You would think he would just focus on the 1500 considering his far superior success at that distance. Maybe try to get his 800 pb down a little bit when he starts sharpening before Tokyo.
Well people often downplay the field that Centro defeated in Rio in 2016. But the field did include a man who had an Olympic Gold and 3 World Championship Golds at 1500 (along with being the 3rd fastest performer in history). It included a man who had an Olympic Gold at 1500m, and a World Championship Silver at 1500m, and earned an Olympic Silver at 1500m in Rio. It included a man who had an Olympic Silver at 1500m and earned an Olympic Bronze in the Rio 1500m. It included a man with a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. It included a man with a World Championship Bronze at 1500m and a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. So maybe it wasn’t too bad a field that Centro beat.
Almgren only 9 sec from WR and ran a new European record 12:44 makes him a man with a World Champs chance for a medal in September.
Can't entirely disagree here. There are enough similarities. Centro performed big on the biggest stage but had trouble competing with the best during the regular season. Cole actually has more work to do to catch Centro because in addition to Centro winning Gold in Rio, remember he also won gold indoors once and medalled at world outdoors twice. He was the consummate championship racer.
Where I would disagree is that Cole has beaten stronger competition at the Olympics, and has the Olympic 1500m record, and stands at number 2 all time for indoor 3k at 7:23. Centro couldn't run that fast if his life depended on it, even with the enhanced shoes. As others have said, even if Cole never wins anything again, it would be difficult to make the case he hasn't somehow massively achieved.
Now to finally answer the thread question, the evidence we've seen is that Cole just is not strong enough at 5k to hang with the best in this insanely competitive era. Just like last season in his 5ks, in Stockholm he lost contact with the leaders and was never a factor. He's similar to his training partner Cooper Teare; good but not great at 5k.
If he's serious about ever making the US 5k team, he may need to actually focus just on 5k training and throw all his chips in. Trying to double the 15 and 5 looks impossible these days and you can't use Jakob as an example because he's gotten smoked in the 15 at major championships the last few years. It doesn't seem reachable for Cole to medal at both events. He probably will need to pick one. You would think he would just focus on the 1500 considering his far superior success at that distance. Maybe try to get his 800 pb down a little bit when he starts sharpening before Tokyo.
Well people often downplay the field that Centro defeated in Rio in 2016. But the field did include a man who had an Olympic Gold and 3 World Championship Golds at 1500 (along with being the 3rd fastest performer in history). It included a man who had an Olympic Gold at 1500m, and a World Championship Silver at 1500m, and earned an Olympic Silver at 1500m in Rio. It included a man who had an Olympic Silver at 1500m and earned an Olympic Bronze in the Rio 1500m. It included a man with a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. It included a man with a World Championship Bronze at 1500m and a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. So maybe it wasn’t too bad a field that Centro beat.
half of those guys were likely dopers. Kiprop and Makloufhi likely off the sauce and Kiprop was injured. The rest? Come on lol.
Well people often downplay the field that Centro defeated in Rio in 2016. But the field did include a man who had an Olympic Gold and 3 World Championship Golds at 1500 (along with being the 3rd fastest performer in history). It included a man who had an Olympic Gold at 1500m, and a World Championship Silver at 1500m, and earned an Olympic Silver at 1500m in Rio. It included a man who had an Olympic Silver at 1500m and earned an Olympic Bronze in the Rio 1500m. It included a man with a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. It included a man with a World Championship Bronze at 1500m and a World Indoor Gold at 1500m. So maybe it wasn’t too bad a field that Centro beat.
Almgren only 9 sec from WR and ran a new European record 12:44 makes him a man with a World Champs chance for a medal in September.
Training like the Ingebrigtsens. Double Threshold > dancan
lets face it, Hocker is great and won the race of the century, but he's not at the level of those guys you mentioned. The closest ones to them are a certain Norwegian and a certain retired British (who is pretty much universally hated on this board btw).
I agree with high school xc coach that he's no American Ingrebrisen. In fact, he's more like Kerr, who almost always runs his best race in a championship final, but never churnning out great performances week in week out like Jakob. And the guys you mentioned (and Jakob) are definitely outliers, even among the top.
Fair enough, but I was responding to the poster who said he is "training through it". That's always seemed like a loser's excuse to me. Literally everyone in the race is in a heavy training block, so that can't be used as an excuse for Cole losing every race so far this season.
I don't necessarily buy the idea that Cole is not or cannot be one of the greats I mentioned. You would agree that El G hated losing so much that you could see it immediately after the race was over? He'd be in tears or look devastated. He was so freakishly competitive that you could make the case that he was the Michael Jordan of mid distance racing. He HATED losing.
The same with Jakob and the same with someone like Paula Ratcliffe. If Edwin Moses had to race a bunch of nobodies in an open race at a small town track meet, you bet your behind he would run to win even if there was nothing to gain. It was who he was. These guys and gals needed to win like a tree needs CO2 or a fish needs water. They would never even consider for one second that a race was not important enough to win. Winning is what they did.
I feel like Cole needs to take a look at the past and adopt the heros of the sport no losing attitude if he wants to be one of the greats. And I get the feeling he does. He has plenty of upside. If he's serious about contending in longer distances, Bekele couldn't run 3:27 or even 7:23, so he's already got a huge speed endurance advantage. He can be Ingebrigtsen if he lights that fire under his belly and absolutely refuses to lose. He has all the tools, he just needs to become an obsessed warrior like Michael Jordan.
Hocker will never be a medal threat in the 5000m or even make a U.S. team. He can blow Fisher off the track in the 1500m but they’re about dead even in the 3000m. How do you think that will play out over 5000m.
All the mental aspects you describe are secondary to talent and fitness. In the most competitive 5000m races, his refusal to lose will be rejected. If everyone refuses to lose, something has to give, right?
How many strong performances has Hocker even had since the Olympics? He ran that solid 3000 time indoors, but got outkicked by a 3:35 1500 runner. But then? All the GST races have been jog fests.
I definitely think it's in his best interest to focus on the 1500 and 5000 rather than trying to be competitive at the 800, but that depends on what the future of the GST will look like, if it will even exist next season and if they'll still do the 8/15 doubling.
How many strong performances has Hocker even had since the Olympics? He ran that solid 3000 time indoors, but got outkicked by a 3:35 1500 runner. But then? All the GST races have been jog fests.
I definitely think it's in his best interest to focus on the 1500 and 5000 rather than trying to be competitive at the 800, but that depends on what the future of the GST will look like, if it will even exist next season and if they'll still do the 8/15 doubling.
Grant dipped under 3:34 at Boston indoors. Solid 3K time? Cole ran 7:23 to Grant’s 7:22 WR. It takes a lot to impress you I guess.
I was in Stockholm at the meet and although it had cooled off significantly by the start of the men’s 5000, it was still quite warm — far from ideal conditions for distance events (though Almgren thrived, obviously). Hocker looked very flushed/red in the face only a couple laps in. Also, I don’t believe he flew over until Thursday — left it quite late IMO. I’m not making excuses for him — clearly he’s not as fit as he was when he ran 7:23 at Millrose. But it was warm.
How many strong performances has Hocker even had since the Olympics? He ran that solid 3000 time indoors, but got outkicked by a 3:35 1500 runner. But then? All the GST races have been jog fests.
I definitely think it's in his best interest to focus on the 1500 and 5000 rather than trying to be competitive at the 800, but that depends on what the future of the GST will look like, if it will even exist next season and if they'll still do the 8/15 doubling.
Grant dipped under 3:34 at Boston indoors. Solid 3K time? Cole ran 7:23 to Grant’s 7:22 WR. It takes a lot to impress you I guess.
It's a good time, but it's indoor on a modern juiced up super track. Needs to show he can put up equivalent performances outdoors