Why No Love For 100m Repeats?

Skuj wrote:

dinosaur bro science is extinct wrote:

400m reps are useful because the condition you're in during most of them matches the condition during much a race.

100m reps don't. As I already mentioned, 20-30m of each one is just getting up to speed. The rest only matches part of the first 100m of a race, at best, and not the later reps.

You let slip in another thread that your 1500m pr was just under 4 flat. That's why your 800m isn't a sprint. The guys going out in 50-52 are sprinting.

So many runners make the mistake of not pushing their top speed as high as possible. They think they can endurance or max vo2 their way to amazing performance. It doesn't work like that with 800, you have to be fast, not just strong. You think the 1:50 800 guys have stronger hearts, more mitochondria, higher max vo2? No, they can sprint, that's all.

And they can "sprint" because...???

Because they do things like 10x100m in training often?

Are we having a heated agreement?

The guys going out in 50-52 can likely run 400m in 46-48. THAT "touches" sprint pace for them.

dinosaur bro science is extinct wrote:

Skuj wrote:

And they can "sprint" because...???

Because they do things like 10x100m in training often?

Are we having a heated agreement?

The guys going out in 50-52 can likely run 400m in 46-48. THAT "touches" sprint pace for them.

Sprint pace is not relative or individualized. There's pretty much nobody that can run a 50 without sprinting, just because they can sprint even faster too. They may make it look easy, but they are still doing it.

This is a physical absolute. Unless you're some freak of nature, giant like Fahnbulleh, you can't keep your feet hitting the ground at 8 m/s without a full sprint form, including high cadence. The mile is the shortest event where you can get away with the usual 180 steps per minute. Fast 800 runners look relaxed, but check their cadence, it's well above 180.

Only the very best milers are able to click off much under sub 60 laps without high turnover. That's part of what makes them elite, the turnover costs energy. But few of them can hang in an elite 800, or even come close these days.

Can you run an all out 100 at average cadence of 4 steps per second or more? Most runners can't. But the few who can go 4.5 steps per second can make 4.2 look easy

Sunset22 wrote:

Sunset22 wrote:

HIGH PERFORMANCE WEST

Workout of the Day: Rono Drill

Link:www.highperformancewest.com

Sorry Skuj ;-)

I mean this one;-)

Rono Drill — 100 m hurtigt, 100 m let
Intensitet — 100 m @ 3 km-800 m anstrengelse, 100 m let
Genopretning — varierer
Anstrengelse — 7/10

Kontekst og detaljer
Dette er en af mine go-to træningspas i den tidlige sæson, eller forberedelsesperiode, for 800m løbere.
Det er i bund og grund en fartlek på banen. Gamle mænd kalder denne session for "Jog-the-Turns-Stride-the-Straights". Jeg kaldte den Rono Drill efter den berømte verdensrekordholder Henry Rono fra slutningen af 1970'erne/begyndelsen af 1980'erne. Kald det hvad du vil, det vigtigste er, at det virker.
Jeg har fundet denne træning meget effektiv til at fremme generel kondition, aerob kapacitet og kraft, modstandskraft mod træthed, generel laktattærskel og løbeøkonomi for løberen på en halvmil.
Jeg klassificerer det som en generel hurtigheds- og udholdenhedstræning med mere fokus på udholdenhed. Hvis man gør dette tidligt i træningsåret, lægger man op til meget hurtigere og sværere hurtigheds- og udholdenhedstræning midt i sæsonen eller i en specifik forberedelsesperiode.
Det kunne gøres uden for banen, men de fleste 800m-løbere, jeg har trænet, kan godt lide at træne på banen, plus den stabile overflade giver dem mulighed for at få et bedre kinetisk afkast med hvert skridt.
Definitionen af "hurtig" er bevidst åben. Den eneste vejledning, jeg tilbyder, er, at "hurtig" ligger et sted mellem 3 km og den nuværende 800 m tempoindsats.
Det samme gælder for de "lette" 100 m. "Let" kan være alt fra en gåtur/løbetur til et hurtigt tempo.
Med fartleks er det vigtigt at give løberen mulighed for at autoregulere indsatsen. Det giver dem mulighed for at lytte til deres krop mere præcist og få mest muligt ud af træningen uden at bekymre sig om spild. Mange løbere, jeg har trænet, nyder denne træning netop fordi den er aflastet af stopuret.
Afhængigt af 800m-løberens modenhed starter jeg typisk med 2-4 sæt af 3 omgange med 100m hurtigt/100m let.
De halvmilsløbere, jeg træner, udfører denne træning ugentligt i cirka 10 uger.
Fremskred er fremskreden på et par måder:
Tempoet på både den "hurtige" og "lette" 100 m øges.
Det samlede volumen vokser til 6-8 omgange og 2-3 sæt.
Hvileintervallet mellem sæt forkortes.
Du behøver ikke at tage mellemtider hver 100 m. I stedet skal du blot registrere tiden for et helt sæt, hvor langt det er. Forsøg derefter at spore konditionsforbedringer ved at fremskynde den globale tid for hvert sæt ved fremtidige gentagelser af træningen. Dette vil fokusere løberen på at forbedre både de "hurtige" og "nemme" 100 m-segmenter samtidigt, i stedet for kun ét.
Efter 10 uger i træk med denne session (jeg gør det normalt i starten af en træningsuge om mandagen) burde der være to resultater:
800m-løberen vil med glæde sætte denne træningspas på pause for sæsonen.
Og endnu vigtigere er det, at løberen vil have et solidt fundament for generel hurtigheds- og udholdenhedskondition og være klar til at tackle ethvert specifikt udholdenhedsarbejde.

Mr FTFY wrote:

dinosaur bro science is extinct wrote:

Sprint pace is not relative or individualized. There's pretty much nobody that can run a 50 without sprinting, just because they can sprint even faster too. They may make it look easy, but they are still doing it.

This is a physical absolute. Unless you're some freak of nature, giant like Fahnbulleh, you can't keep your feet hitting the ground at 8 m/s without a full sprint form, including high cadence. The mile is the shortest event where you can get away with the usual 180 steps per minute. Fast 800 runners look relaxed, but check their cadence, it's well above 180.

Only the very best milers are able to click off much under sub 60 laps without high turnover. That's part of what makes them elite, the turnover costs energy. But few of them can hang in an elite 800, or even come close these days.

Can you run an all out 100 at average cadence of 4 steps per second or more? Most runners can't. But the few who can go 4.5 steps per second can make 4.2 look easy

Whoa, my man this is pretty complex stuff. Please telk me you are part of the USA brain drain. Europe needs you.

But I'm not convinced. Every 800m specialist knows 4x400m at 800m race pace, with 4min rests. Theres even a video of Coe doing it, in slomo, in a famous doc. 400m in 49/50.

Now you will say this is 4x400 sprinting. How can someone sprint 4x400? The can't. They go 90-95 percent, an intense workout for sure.

Sprinting is sprinting.

dinosaur bro science is extinct wrote:

Mr FTFY wrote:

Whoa, my man this is pretty complex stuff. Please telk me you are part of the USA brain drain. Europe needs you.

But I'm not convinced. Every 800m specialist knows 4x400m at 800m race pace, with 4min rests. Theres even a video of Coe doing it, in slomo, in a famous doc. 400m in 49/50.

Now you will say this is 4x400 sprinting. How can someone sprint 4x400? The can't. They go 90-95 percent, an intense workout for sure.

Sprinting is sprinting.

YES. THEY. CAN.

Sprinting is not measured in effort. That's distance runner talk. Sprints are measured in speed.

But by either metric, if Wayde Van Niekerk did some "90-95%" effort flying 100 repeats, they would all be around 11 flat or faster. He too might not look like he's sprinting to the casual eye, but only a fool would say an 11 flat wasn't a sprint. And yes, only a fool would say 49 or 50 second reps aren't a sprint.

Fool, because you fail to understand that you too could sprint if you bothered to develop the proper technique. Instead your mind stubbornly imagines that 800 elites like Coe are some kind of special endurance monster. Maybe they have bigger lungs, bigger hearts, more red blood cells, more type 2a muscle. No!

I like 100s wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I think of training in simple terms like RECOVERY, ENDURANCE, STAMINA, and SPEED. I think marathon runners require plenty of ENDURANCE and STAMINA, but will not benefit so much from 800m SPEED. The 3-hour marathon runner needs to maintain 3m25s pace per 800m, repeated 52.75x without any in-between recovery. What would be the benefit of doing 12x100m at say 2m20s pace per 800m (68% by time) with 1-minute/100m walking recovery for this runner's marathon fitness and times?

1. The OP talking about milers more so than marathoners, so your point about 3-hour marathoners is somewhat moot.

2. What would the benefit be? Speed reserve.

Explained:

If your 800 ability is 2m10s, 3-hour marathon pace is fully 57% slower than your 800 pace.

If your 800 ability is 2m30s, 3-hour marathon pace is only 37% slower than your 800 pace.

Assuming equal ENDURANCE and STAMINA, which runner do you think will do better?

SPEED matters. No elite marathoner stinks over the mile.

rekrunner wrote:

I like 100s wrote:

1. The OP talking about milers more so than marathoners, so your point about 3-hour marathoners is somewhat moot.

2. What would the benefit be? Speed reserve.

Explained:

If your 800 ability is 2m10s, 3-hour marathon pace is fully 57% slower than your 800 pace.

If your 800 ability is 2m30s, 3-hour marathon pace is only 37% slower than your 800 pace.

Assuming equal ENDURANCE and STAMINA, which runner do you think will do better?

SPEED matters. No elite marathoner stinks over the mile.

1) Well the OP did say: "Because some fast (not sprinting!) running benefits us all - even Marathoners."

2) Assuming equal ENDURANCE and STAMINA, I would think the marathon performance is virtually equal, and 800m ability wouldn't be a significant factor, being too far removed from marathon pace. However ...

After a quick search on "speed reserve", I've just seen that Veronique Billat (among others) likes "Speed reserve" for marathon runners, because it improves things like neuromuscular recruitment and lactate shuttle, so I'll accept the point. Thanks for the response.