Does threshold not work for certain types of runners?

That is my experience so far. Legs had no pop, and I couldn't get my heart rate up to the the highs I usually do in races.

Couple of things:

1. The article you linked seems to indicate that the members of the control group didn’t improve with the higher volume in the second year, whereas the group with high intensity improved, which seems different from the point you’re making about differences in training responses.

2. You’re saying it’s naive to assume that everyone responds similarly to training in a thread about… people with different muscle fiber distributions responding differently to training.

Back on topic, I think that a lot of people remember the Two Types of Runners thread from years ago but have seen sirpoc’s incredible success and wondered

1. Is it possible to not go faster than, say, the prescribed approx 10km pace or whatever on 1min intervals and still PB, even for a strongly FT athlete?

2. Is CTL really the primary predictor of performance for a FT type, regardless of how intensity is distributed?

From what I’ve experienced, it seems that CTL is indeed extremely important regardless of fiber typology, but the type of intensity needed seems to matter for FTs.

There is a different between threshold effort (2-4mmol of lactate) and threshold pace. those 400s are fast but they are short enough lactate doesn’t build. The other stuff should be right around or below LT2 also.

Now I would argue lactate doesn’t completely quantify was is going on. Your 400s and 1600m runs might have the same average lactate over the session (probably not) but the mechanical stress and muscle recruitment of running 10km at 10ks pace versus 10mi pace will be slightly different. Lots of 800m types really seem to like the 400m while I don’t see as many doing 2k repeats or 6 mile runs. My guess the higher speeds recruit more fibers to meet the higher power demands.

now we are taking small differences here. It will be more like you recruit 30% of your FT when running at MP and 50% at 10k pace. The numbers are made up but you get the point. As you fatigue stuff gets mixed up more but I wouldn’t be shocked for our FT athlete to get more total fibers activated.

Most training works for everyone, but some work better than others. I have found that most training is good for everyone, except for the mentally weak. They are in peak shape, but when competition arrives, they fold, despite the training. Mileage, plus threshold training, and good workouts, but no fire to compete through the pain of competition. Train the mind first.

You are a fking moron.

Yes, fast twitch fibers fatigue earlier as slow twitch fibers and the body uses then even faster fibers to compensate. An even higher lactate level is produced.

Therefore it can be assumed, that Sirpocs mentioned training system might work better for more slow twitch oriented runners, but need to be adjusted for more fast twitch oriented runners. An individual adaptation is needed ...

We need the equivalent of a “FT Sirpoc” to experiment and work all this out.

As a starter, the FT types should maybe only do the shorter ST reps.

As for the 2 min reps at 10k pace. 3 times 30 mins at 10k pace every week, could be tough.

Not sure I agree with this at all. Another fast sprint guy here, I was pretty good in college over a quarter.

Like others people keep conveniently overlooking, I am also a ft guy who has used the method from the thread successfully. Sure, adaptation is needed. But if anything, I found doing more of the longer reps useful , than short ones. Work on your weakness. Over time the gap has closed and it's working well for me.

My muscle fiber are the opposite of sirpoc. Good balanced training like this will work for everyone probably, given time. We run the risk of overcomplicating it.

Are you saying you now ONLY do threshold for your workouts? You should still do some shorter hill reps or faster paced reps at times

As SirPoc already tried the 25 x 400m there is precedent for the difference approaches to get to the end result of around 30mins of subT work.

as 1km is 3/4mins and 1m is 5/6mins, 2km 6/8mins and 3km is 9-12mins, you scale it back the other way of 90sec > 45sec > 20sec > 10 sec with recoveries 30seconds or maybe keep to 60 seconds.

as paces are 120mins > somewhere between 90 & 70 mins race pace ?? > 60mins race pace, the “new” shorter sessions would be 30min race pace > 15min > 7min > 4mins. So the equivalent of 10km, 5km, 3km and mile pace.

for faster twitch they could do the same as the slower twitch longer rep while keeping to the same lactate surely.

Not a Sub T workout but something Marius Bakken (one of the fathers of the modern threshold movement in running) recommends is shorter (45/15, or similar) harder reps to complement your threshold training and still keep risk low.

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From the main thread: "
So to summarize based on three interviews made with Marius Bakken in the Norwegian podcast "I det lange løp" ("in the long run") done by Jann Post in 2022 and 2023:
The 45/15 session came about after having the hypothesis that training with a high HR mattered, and after iterating through different sessions Marius Bakken found that 45/15 was the session that gave the highest speed, the highest HR at the lowest lactate reading.
He would (and still do, 45/15 is his only session these days) do 20-25 reps of increasing intensity and then keep the last intensity over 5-10 additional reps. He would be really carefull with the first rep, and use that to guide the intensity (starting up to 30sek/km lower than target intensity). This was done by looking at hr readings/lactate readings after the first rep.
While not giving any pace examples, probably as he was guided by lactate readings and distegarded the pace in favor of that, he didnt protest when the podcast host said he could go down to 5k pace, and maybe even 3k pace.
As a sidenote, he mentioned that Vebjørn Rodal and Sebastian Coe was his big idols. It was then a surreal experience sitting in the home of Sebastians father (who coached him for a bit) watching Rodal win olympic gold."

I am right in between – never had the talent for sprints, never had natural aerobic endurance. Kind of a sucky place to be genetically, as I almost have more weaknesses than strengths. However, for me this method has been great because I can sustainably work on faster paces and longer reps without burning out. I've personally seen the most improvement from doing 20x1min, 10x3min, and 3x10min, maximizing mechanical load at those shorter reps and then adding sustained load for the longer ones.

For what it's worth, my experience with this method has been consistently positive but at times weird until I figured it out, I think. Felt like I lacked pop in the legs but aerobically developed very well and surprised myself at longer distances. Then switched the 5x6min reps for 20x1min (and now up to 25x1min) reps and got the pop back, running faster than before but still feel very strong aerobically – can sustain consistent effort but also accelerate at the end of a race now. It's been a long process trying to figure out the best combination for my middling muscle fiber composition, but I am quickly learning that for me it's balancing aerobic development (internal load) through sub-threshold/threshold "state" (not pace, there is no such thing as threshold pace) with mechanical load (external load). Hope this helps some folks. Try out different balances of rep speed + rest configurations but still follow the basic formula of staying in a sub-threshold state.

What rest and effort are you doing for the 1' reps?

Rest 30 seconds, walking or very slow jogging, doesn't matter. Whatever lets you feel somewhat (read: barely) rested before the next rep. Effort level for the reps themselves usually starts around 5-6 RPE, ends around 7 for me (the 1min reps feel slightly harder than the longer reps, at least for me, due to the mechanical load from running quicker). For me this is somewhere between 8k-10k pace per rep, but recovery keeps the body just below threshold "state." Should not––and I cannot emphasize this enough––feel sore the next day. If you do, do it slower next time. Use trial and error based on the core principle of running as intensely as you can nearly every other day, but recovered enough that you can do it indefinitely without needing down days or "deload" weeks. Once dialed in, it is really as simple as hitting 5-7 RPE every workout and then occasionally doing a race.

It's not that far removed from the 400m repeats (in 64 seconds) with 30 seconds recovery.

I've always noticed when doing the 400m repeats that you feel like you get the first 100m for free and it's not until 250-300m in that the HR really starts to pick up. I've not measured lactate during these workouts though, which may tell a different story.

Yes there are threshold non-responders. 400/800 types who are more fast-twitch will get worse on a threshold-centric program.

So, you say that it gets harder the longer you run?

Incredible, never thought of that Mr. Obvious.