I think this is a great post, except for 28:16. Naaah!!!
That was on the road, and the WR at the time was 28:00. He also beat Charlie Spedding in that race, who had won the AAA 10K that summer, and who would win bronze in the LA marathon 9 months later.
He also beat Alberto Cova in a 10K road race.
I somehow missed this for 42 years. Please, help me out. Show me where Ovett ran 28:16. Thanks.
That was on the road, and the WR at the time was 28:00. He also beat Charlie Spedding in that race, who had won the AAA 10K that summer, and who would win bronze in the LA marathon 9 months later.
He also beat Alberto Cova in a 10K road race.
I somehow missed this for 42 years. Please, help me out. Show me where Ovett ran 28:16. Thanks.
Rank Xerox 10km, Battersea, December 4 (28 years old) 4th 28:16 (PB)
Only to someone who has no understanding of the past. There are many of you here.
Then you can't talk about anything that happened before you were born. You don't seem to understand technology. You don't understand much at all about anything.
The point isn't whether you can talk about the past but whether you understand it. The observations made here show quite a few don't.
No, it is not like saying Coe could have run 1:39. Coe ran very very close to his potential, in a time trial race made for him with great pacing, no competition and the mindset to break the world record. Steve Ovett never had a race like this - we can only speculate why. Potentially a combination of how out of reach the 1:41.73 was and his own personality as he was never into time trials. He was running world records at the 1,500 / Mile while waving at the crowd before the race was over, this is something Coe would never do. Without making any judgement call, he was just a different personality, clearly winning was more important than setting world records.
Sorry but the comparison with Juantorena doesn't make sense either, he was primarily a 400m runner that moved to the 800m. Ovett was primarily a 1,500 / Miler that had supreme speed and that's why people speculate how much faster he could have run for the 800m. One has to look at the evidence. 2 seconds is a lot at this level for the 800m, yes, but when you look at his credentials, raw speed and how he actually ran some of his finest races, 1:42.5 is very very reasonable for him. Seriously, he ran his 1:44.09 after a 49.7-49.8 first lap, you can't possibly believe this was his optimal best for the distance.
Ovett didn't care only about winning. He went for world records in the 1500 and mile multiple times (and achieved them). You're only assuming that he wasn't running anywhere near his best in the 800. Sub-50 for a first lap in an 800 wasn't off the charts for someone who is claimed to be capable of 1:42 (or even 1:40). It was slower than Coe's first lap when he ran 1:41.73.
You use the argument that Ovett's speed would have enabled him to run 1:42 but you don't accept that argument when applied to Juantorena, who was far faster over 400 (44-low) - and Juantorena was one of the great 800 runners. A world record in an Olympic final (and leading all the way like Rudisha did nearly 40 years later) establishes that. It isn't based on how many times he ran the event.
There isn't any way Ovett could have run 1:42 or he would have shown something near it in his lengthy career. More likely 1:43x. He was primarily a great 1500/miler.
Of course he didn't care "only" about winning but that aspect of his personality is there at every "wave" for everyone to see - if I am not mistaken there's a 1,500m or Mile race he waves at the final stretch and then misses the WR by 0.01. This was stated by Ovett himself and by many that knew him, he was not motivated by setting world records.
He never had a time trial race for the 800m, only him he can answer why. Coe's first WR, the 1:42.33 was set in 1979; in 1977 - 1978 it is pretty obvious Ovett in the right race could have challenged the then WR from Juantorena (1:43.4). That is pretty clear by his 1:44.09 race alone where the first lap was ~49.8, how fast do you think Ovett would've run if his first lap had been 50.8 instead, following a pace maker...?
And that I believe was not the top shape of his life, which was either 1977 or 1980; that 50.5 final lap in Moscow could have been even faster if he was not boxed in.
Alberto Juantorena is one of the best 800m runners ever, that I agree, but he is not a good comparison to Ovett; complete different runners, built differently, Juantorena never ran an elite 1,500m. He was clearly the fastest 800m runner on a pure speed basis, but that is not the only aspect to take into consideration.
the argument for Ovett is that he had blazing raw speed as his 21.7 200m proves it (as well as the 11.8 final 100m at the 77' world cup) AND was a WR holder for the 1,500m and the Mile so that suggests he had the potential to have been even better than he was for the 800m.
Again when you say "there isn't any way Ovett could have run 1:42" what is your evidence? I've shared many stats / facts about his career that makes it very rational to think he could have run a 1:42.5
that 1:44.09 alone was already a ~1:43.95 as he slowed down before the line when realized he was not winning and again that was after a 49.8 first lap, it was far from his best race
how fast do you think he was capable of running on a time trial at the shape he was in Moscow, capable of a 50.5 final lap (arguably faster as he was boxed in at the start of the lap) ?
Ovett didn't care only about winning. He went for world records in the 1500 and mile multiple times (and achieved them). You're only assuming that he wasn't running anywhere near his best in the 800. Sub-50 for a first lap in an 800 wasn't off the charts for someone who is claimed to be capable of 1:42 (or even 1:40). It was slower than Coe's first lap when he ran 1:41.73.
You use the argument that Ovett's speed would have enabled him to run 1:42 but you don't accept that argument when applied to Juantorena, who was far faster over 400 (44-low) - and Juantorena was one of the great 800 runners. A world record in an Olympic final (and leading all the way like Rudisha did nearly 40 years later) establishes that. It isn't based on how many times he ran the event.
There isn't any way Ovett could have run 1:42 or he would have shown something near it in his lengthy career. More likely 1:43x. He was primarily a great 1500/miler.
Of course he didn't care "only" about winning but that aspect of his personality is there at every "wave" for everyone to see - if I am not mistaken there's a 1,500m or Mile race he waves at the final stretch and then misses the WR by 0.01. This was stated by Ovett himself and by many that knew him, he was not motivated by setting world records.
He never had a time trial race for the 800m, only him he can answer why. Coe's first WR, the 1:42.33 was set in 1979; in 1977 - 1978 it is pretty obvious Ovett in the right race could have challenged the then WR from Juantorena (1:43.4). That is pretty clear by his 1:44.09 race alone where the first lap was ~49.8, how fast do you think Ovett would've run if his first lap had been 50.8 instead, following a pace maker...?
And that I believe was not the top shape of his life, which was either 1977 or 1980; that 50.5 final lap in Moscow could have been even faster if he was not boxed in.
Alberto Juantorena is one of the best 800m runners ever, that I agree, but he is not a good comparison to Ovett; complete different runners, built differently, Juantorena never ran an elite 1,500m. He was clearly the fastest 800m runner on a pure speed basis, but that is not the only aspect to take into consideration.
the argument for Ovett is that he had blazing raw speed as his 21.7 200m proves it (as well as the 11.8 final 100m at the 77' world cup) AND was a WR holder for the 1,500m and the Mile so that suggests he had the potential to have been even better than he was for the 800m.
Again when you say "there isn't any way Ovett could have run 1:42" what is your evidence? I've shared many stats / facts about his career that makes it very rational to think he could have run a 1:42.5
that 1:44.09 alone was already a ~1:43.95 as he slowed down before the line when realized he was not winning and again that was after a 49.8 first lap, it was far from his best race
how fast do you think he was capable of running on a time trial at the shape he was in Moscow, capable of a 50.5 final lap (arguably faster as he was boxed in at the start of the lap) ?
I'm sorry but I don't believe his waving to the crowd is a serious reason why he didn't run much faster times, and especially over the 800. I think he was a great runner and a very good tactical runner, as he showed in the Moscow 800 final, but I don't think he was better than a second faster than his pr over the 800. A full two seconds over that distance is huge. If he barely raced the distance - maybe. But he didn't. He had a lengthy career and raced it often and was good enough to be Olympic champion. If he had run 1:43 in a race that wasn't a record attempt I might concede he could have been faster but he showed he was at his best a 1:44-45 guy. 1:42 is another planet. He wasn't on it.
That is correct. He also ran other road races in his career, even a 25 km race, as well as a bunch of cross-country races and the so-mentioned 65:30 half-marathon
He also had the school's long jump record for 18 years (6.25, from 1971 until 1989), and he was only 15
Athletics Weekly has him as UK's greatest all-around men's middle distance runner ever
Of course he didn't care "only" about winning but that aspect of his personality is there at every "wave" for everyone to see - if I am not mistaken there's a 1,500m or Mile race he waves at the final stretch and then misses the WR by 0.01. This was stated by Ovett himself and by many that knew him, he was not motivated by setting world records.
He never had a time trial race for the 800m, only him he can answer why. Coe's first WR, the 1:42.33 was set in 1979; in 1977 - 1978 it is pretty obvious Ovett in the right race could have challenged the then WR from Juantorena (1:43.4). That is pretty clear by his 1:44.09 race alone where the first lap was ~49.8, how fast do you think Ovett would've run if his first lap had been 50.8 instead, following a pace maker...?
And that I believe was not the top shape of his life, which was either 1977 or 1980; that 50.5 final lap in Moscow could have been even faster if he was not boxed in.
Alberto Juantorena is one of the best 800m runners ever, that I agree, but he is not a good comparison to Ovett; complete different runners, built differently, Juantorena never ran an elite 1,500m. He was clearly the fastest 800m runner on a pure speed basis, but that is not the only aspect to take into consideration.
the argument for Ovett is that he had blazing raw speed as his 21.7 200m proves it (as well as the 11.8 final 100m at the 77' world cup) AND was a WR holder for the 1,500m and the Mile so that suggests he had the potential to have been even better than he was for the 800m.
Again when you say "there isn't any way Ovett could have run 1:42" what is your evidence? I've shared many stats / facts about his career that makes it very rational to think he could have run a 1:42.5
that 1:44.09 alone was already a ~1:43.95 as he slowed down before the line when realized he was not winning and again that was after a 49.8 first lap, it was far from his best race
how fast do you think he was capable of running on a time trial at the shape he was in Moscow, capable of a 50.5 final lap (arguably faster as he was boxed in at the start of the lap) ?
I'm sorry but I don't believe his waving to the crowd is a serious reason why he didn't run much faster times, and especially over the 800. I think he was a great runner and a very good tactical runner, as he showed in the Moscow 800 final, but I don't think he was better than a second faster than his pr over the 800. A full two seconds over that distance is huge. If he barely raced the distance - maybe. But he didn't. He had a lengthy career and raced it often and was good enough to be Olympic champion. If he had run 1:43 in a race that wasn't a record attempt I might concede he could have been faster but he showed he was at his best a 1:44-45 guy. 1:42 is another planet. He wasn't on it.
You are wrong, but what can I say more than all the evidence that's been posted here. The fact he ran a lot of 800m races and has no sub 1:44 performances is not a good argument either, Coe only ran twice under 1:43 but there's no dispute he was a 1:41 runner and some even speculate he could have run within the 1:40 range.
The difference between the two is that Coe indeed had two time trial races where he set both of his World Records
In Championship races he was a ~1:43 runner just as Ovett was a ~1:44
given the opportunity he ran a 1:41.73
Ovett never had that opportunity and it is also my belief he never really chased it.
As for his personality aspect this is well documented and mentioned by many people that knew him in books, interviews, etc, in fact it is mentioned by Ovett himself.
Here below and example from someone that knew him from Sussex Athletics
He liked running and racing against people. To me his World Record breaking attempts in the late seventies and early eighties were really out of character. Racing was his forte and when you look at today’s athletes and the number of races they do, they pale alongside Steve who would sometimes churn out nearly thirty races a year including Cross-country and road running events.
I'm sorry but I don't believe his waving to the crowd is a serious reason why he didn't run much faster times, and especially over the 800. I think he was a great runner and a very good tactical runner, as he showed in the Moscow 800 final, but I don't think he was better than a second faster than his pr over the 800. A full two seconds over that distance is huge. If he barely raced the distance - maybe. But he didn't. He had a lengthy career and raced it often and was good enough to be Olympic champion. If he had run 1:43 in a race that wasn't a record attempt I might concede he could have been faster but he showed he was at his best a 1:44-45 guy. 1:42 is another planet. He wasn't on it.
You are wrong, but what can I say more than all the evidence that's been posted here. The fact he ran a lot of 800m races and has no sub 1:44 performances is not a good argument either, Coe only ran twice under 1:43 but there's no dispute he was a 1:41 runner and some even speculate he could have run within the 1:40 range.
The difference between the two is that Coe indeed had two time trial races where he set both of his World Records
In Championship races he was a ~1:43 runner just as Ovett was a ~1:44
given the opportunity he ran a 1:41.73
Ovett never had that opportunity and it is also my belief he never really chased it.
As for his personality aspect this is well documented and mentioned by many people that knew him in books, interviews, etc, in fact it is mentioned by Ovett himself.
Here below and example from someone that knew him from Sussex Athletics
He liked running and racing against people. To me his World Record breaking attempts in the late seventies and early eighties were really out of character. Racing was his forte and when you look at today’s athletes and the number of races they do, they pale alongside Steve who would sometimes churn out nearly thirty races a year including Cross-country and road running events.
Yet he cared enough about records to go for them in the 1500 and mile. If he was good enough he would have done the same for the 800. Records always matter to the best. So perhaps he knew something his fans didn't. He wasn't as fast over the distance as you like to believe he was.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Armstronglivs - Ovett raced 800 rarely after 1976 and, apart from Prague, was never involved in a fast race until the LA semi when he was sick. I can promise you he never chased a fast 800 time.
This post was edited 16 seconds after it was posted.
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Still talking about him today should tell you something
I’m pretty sure Ovett could have run faster than Nick Symmonds and Clayton Murphy for 800m. They are both 1:42.9.
You have to go back very far in time to find an 800m Olympic champion who was “only” capable of 1:44, well before Ovett’s era.
Ovett tore shreds off Coe, a 1:41 man, at 800m when it mattered most, with a massive negative split 800m where no one could match Ovett’s aggression, speed and power. Ovett had all the tools to run 1:42 that day if the race required it.
Armstronglivs - Ovett raced 800 rarely after 1976 and, apart from Prague, was never involved in a fast race until the LA semi when he was sick. I can promise you he never chased a fast 800 time.
I went to check this and it is actually true, i was surprised by how little he competed over 800m post 76!!
1977 - 0 races (!)
1978 - 2 races
1979 - 1 race
1980 - 3 races but all in the Olympics (heats, semi-finals, final)
1981 - 0 races (!)
1982 - 1 race
1983 - 3 races
84 onwards he was clearly not the same runner as we could witness at the Olympics so I'll stop here.
Peter Elliott ran 1:42.97 for the 800m. With all due respect to Elliott, a Olympic silver medalist in the 1,500m and WCH silver medalist in the 800m, but it is clear between him and Ovett who was the superior athlete.
In fact in every distance from 400m to 3,000m Steve Ovett was faster (you can include the 200m and the 5,000m as well, I don't have records for Elliott running these distances but I doubt it would be faster than 21.7 and 13:20). The only exception is the 800m -- so how come Ovett couldn't at least have run faster than 1:42.97, this doesn't make any sense.
I've read his book a long time ago and don't recall exactly the passage, but there's a chapter where he mentions he believed he was in 3:28 (or 3:27, I don't recall) shape for the 1,500m if he had actually tried a time trial race.
here are other facts about this amazing athlete:
~11.8 final 100m to win the 1977 World Cup, and this was 2 weeks ago he beat the British Marathon Champion in a half-marathon he jogged in 65:38
~ his 7:41 3,000m also in 1977 is a fine race often forgotten.
~ in 1978 he won a Mile race in Crystal Palace in 3:57 where he closed in 24.4 whilst waving at the crowd.
~ for the european champ in 78 the same champ that he ran 1:44.09 for 800m, he won the 1,500m in 3:35 with a 24.8 final 200m split
~in 78 a world's best at 2 miles beating Henry Rono in the process with a 8:13 finish and a 55.8 final lap.
~ in 1980 53.8 last lap for his 3:31.36 race in Koblenz
He was way past his prime when he ran his 3:30.77 World Record ('83)
Few remember but he also ran a 10km road race that he finished in 28:16
He is one of the most talented runners ever with a supreme range - how many runners you know can run 21.7 for the 200m and "jog" a half-marathon in 65 minutes, beating the National Marathon Champion in the process?
As a stated in my first post, claiming that Ovett couldn't have run significantly faster than 1:44.09 in the 800m can only be due to a lack of knowledge of his career and races.
Of course the suggested 1:40 is a stretch, but 1:42.5 was very realistic, in my opinion his true potential over the distance in a time trial race, with perfect pacing and at his prime, would be around 1:42 flat. Let's say 1:42.09 to make it more "beautiful" and precisely 2 seconds than his PB actually is.
Really good post. And I agree with you as per my first post on this thread ~ Ovett could’ve run 1:42. But no faster. Not 1:40 as was originally postulated. He would’ve been a 1:42 guy in a perfect race if he chased it. 1:42.5 sounds about right.
Now, give him the bouncy spikes that also enable accelerated recovery and the bicarb and he just might run under 1:41.
We've all seen the "arrogance" footage - waving at the crowd, slowing down in the straight, only to have his butt handed to him at the line.
This needs some context. The race was on August 8, 1980, a 5000m at the Coca-Cola Games.
Ovett's schedule in the previous 16 days-
July 24 - Olympic 800m heat
July 25 - Olympic 800m semi final
July 26 - Olympic 800m final
July 30 - Olympic 1500m heat
July 31 - Olympic 1500m semi final
August 1 - Olympic 1500m final
August 8 - IAC Coca Cola Games - 5000m
So, only a week after running 6 races in 8 days, and training for 800m/1500m, a tired Ovett was trying to win a 5000m with minimum effort, he miscalculated and was caught right on the tape by a determined John Treacy, losing by a 0.05 margin.
Incidentally, Ovett would race five more times in August after that, wining a 5000m over Wilson Waiga on August 11 in Budapest; a 1500m over Ray Flynn in Lausanne on August 15; a mile over John Walker and Steve Scott at the Ivo Van Damme Memorial; a Mile over Scott and Walker in London on August 25; and a 1500m over Wessinghage in a new world record on August 27.
Everyone has their favorite runners and makes up stories about what they would have done. Ryuns running 3:45, Coe is doing a 1:40, and so on. In the end the guy competed for over a half a decade and never came close. And it wasn’t like he was fooling around when Beyer drilled him in the last 100m.
Beyer was massively doped (confirmed by Stasi papers). Ovett had run a much too fast first 400m chasing Coe.
Armstronglivs - Ovett raced 800 rarely after 1976 and, apart from Prague, was never involved in a fast race until the LA semi when he was sick. I can promise you he never chased a fast 800 time.
I went to check this and it is actually true, i was surprised by how little he competed over 800m post 76!!
1977 - 0 races (!)
1978 - 2 races
1979 - 1 race
1980 - 3 races but all in the Olympics (heats, semi-finals, final)
1981 - 0 races (!)
1982 - 1 race
1983 - 3 races
84 onwards he was clearly not the same runner as we could witness at the Olympics so I'll stop here.
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