How on earth are HSers running this fast?

Of course not everyone is running well, and there are many mediocre, or worse, runners just like there’s always been. Check out some of the results in Athletic Net if you don’t believe me. The new shoes are not to affect the distribution of ability.

I'm not sure why it has to be just one thing? Can't it be a combination?

Yes shoes are making people faster. Yes training is better. Yes some are seeing others race and it makes them faster. Yes more are committed year round. Yes we are getting better athletes in the sport. Yes some are doping.

Bruh, in the last year, 7 HS runners have broken 4 in the mile. Guess how many broke 4 in 2019. Zero. So, yep, the spikes aren’t gonna do much for the back-of-the-pack, 8-minute runner who went out for track to get in shape. But for any remotely talented HS runner willing to put in the work, they’re a game changer (relatively speaking of course when compared with times from 10 years ago). Of course, a 4:20 mile doesn’t mean much anymore.

What training exists now that didn’t exist from 2013 to 2019? What are athletes observing now that they weren’t 5 years ago?

From 2013-2019, 5 HS runners broke 4 in the mile.

From 2020-2025? 17! 17 HS runners have broken 4 in the mile in the last 5 years.

What changed? Runners are doing the same things they were doing in 2018 and 2019.

There is a reason doping in high school sprinting goes way back. Because there was a clear financial incentive. Same for football. Baseball (Arod apparently doped in high school). Etc. What changed in the last 5 years is the financial landscape in distance running. Suddenly you could dope your way to fame, NIL money and a decent pro contract. And you did not have to win an Olympic medal to do it. Once the money and celebrity started to flow (Tuohy was the first collegiate distance runner wth a NIL deal), the inncence evaporated.

How many teenage athletes have you coached between 2019 and now?

LV, Webb, and Granville’s records have survived the onslaught of fast HS runners. If the shoes make a difference, it cant be much more than a second per mile. There’s no way it could turn what would have been a 9:20 runner into a 9:00 guy.

There have been more than enough surveys done. So unlike all other high school sports, a sport where doping would be incredible effective is magically spared? Sure. The excuses, the denialism, the straw grasping. Just tedious.

All of this, for sure. Those who are trying to explain this by pointing to a single factor cannot actually be involved in the sport. It's all of it. And yes, some kids are doping, but not the majority. Supplementing, YES. But not doping. There are big gains to be had with legal supplements these days- enough to give you an edge without risking your future.

I don’t know what to tell you. It seems everyone is looking for an answer and I’m just pointing out the absolute obvious.

Since you pointed out the 3200, I’ll use US times in the 3000m as an example. From 2015-2019, if you ran sub 8 you were guaranteed a place in the top 60-70. In 2022? Barely breaking 8 in a 3000 would have put you at 132nd on the US list. In 2023, 119th. And 2024, 129th.

From 2010-15, there was a gradual improvement in times. For example, if you ran sub 8 during those years, you were likely to be top 50 on the US list. But from 2015-19 there was no improvement. In 2019, last sub 8 US runner was 69th. In 2022 they were 132nd.

From 2019-22 absolutely nothing else changed other than shoes.

I’m referring to records while you’re referring to depth. If you believe the shoes are turning 4:04 guys into sub-4 ones, that 4 seconds would mean Webb could have run 3:49 with the new shoes. That same 4 seconds per mile would bring LV down to 8:21.

I don’t agree with your claim nothing has changed besides the shoes. I believe the advent of distance running in middle school is bringing more of the most talented runners to the sport.

Aren’t we talking about depth? I thought we were but, if you want to talk records, great! - go look at how many men’s and women’s track world, olympic, wc, national, collegiate, and HS records have been broken in the last 4 years and compare with how many were broken from 2010-2020.

I’m only giving a reasonable scenario that explains why, from 2010-19, only 6 HS runners broke 4, and from 2021-25, 17 have done it. Almost triple the amount in half the time.

I don’t know what Webb could have run with the shoes. But we can certainly find out what a current 4:00 can run w/o them.

Any bouncy shoe denier can prove me (and anyone else) wrong at any time. I have a pair of perfectly good spikes from the late 90s that anyone can have.

I reread your post and you were most definitely referring to depth. As for WRs, there are countless paced men’s’1500m/miles but the records have held firm. There has only been 2 and 6 second improvements in the 5000/10000m. For sure, the road shoes have made a big difference. Maybe two minutes for the marathon and one for the HM and maybe even more the women.

Good luck finding a 4:00 guy willing to run a balls to the wall mile in the new shoes for comparison purposes.

Do your perfectly good spikes from the ‘90s come in size 11?

it's so obviously cheater shoes. the sport is growing, and more kids are running, and we're naturally on a curve of gradual improvement, but the insane record breaking times across the board are almost entirely due to cheater shoes.

this is a bizarre way to look at the trajectory. no one had been particularly close to bekele's records for a long, long time until the cheater shoes came out. the sub-4 HS miler's club was at 5 or 6 over the span of centuries...then the cheater shoes came out, we blinked, and it's at 20 practically overnight. i think you're looking at elite men getting an 8-15 second benefit in the 5k on the track, and 20 to 30 seconds in the 10k, 1-2 minutes in the half and 2 to 4 minutes in the marathon. probably 2-4 seconds in the mile. the conversions put the leading men of today loosely around where the top guys were a decade ago, or very slightly faster. NOT shattering records left and right faster.

They are 9s I think. Adidas Adistar maybe? Top-of-the-line at the time.

Kessler was running with Very Nice Track Club in high school, I'd say that's pretty high level training. Hocker was doing some tough training as well, so was Ryun. Really only Nuguse fits this example, however he had a full long career in college to help him get there. And we're not talking about them anyway, we're talking about the many high schoolers running sub 9 3200s now and around 4 flat in the mile in the past several years, only Kessler fits that, and again, he was doing elite training at the age of 17.

So you think 100% that someone like Jane Hedegren is doping and there is no other explanation for her being fast?