We changed the thread titled to make it more descriptive. It was initially titled, "Ruthe and Tanner dead heat."
If you are unfamiliar with Ruthe, since the start of 2025, he has set World records for fastest 1500 (3:41.25), mile (4:01.72) and 3000 (7:56.18) ever run by someone at the age of 15 (he turns 16 on April 12). That being said, him tying Tanner is a shock as Tanner ran 3:51 in the mile for the win at BU on February 21 and has a 3:31 1500 pb from 2023.
We also merged a 2nd thread into this one. It was titled, "Sam Ruthe and Sam Tanner tie in NZ 1500m Champs!"
A few weeks ago a friend of mine who knows Craig Kirkwood told me that Sam Tanner was not going full on in training at the moment. That may have changed by now, or not.
No matter, this was not the first time a pre race favorite has been unable to shake an underdog in a tactical race and it won't be the last.
This race wasn’t an Olympic final. Tanner is not in 3:31 shape, and how hard he pushed himself is an unknown. When Ruthe runs outdoors this spring, we’ll have a much better idea of just how good he is.
Meanwhile, Ruthe seems to be the one person on the planet that you don’t think is a doper.
When Ruthe runs outdoors in spring it will be at the end of a long season for a 15 year old.
What more do you need to "get an idea of just how good he is" for a 15 year old kid - are stopwatches different in the US? Does the imperial system measure time differently?
He’s not going to run the WCs? If he does, he’ll be going against people at their peak fitness for the year. That will tell us a lot more about his talent than having tied a 3:31 guy in an indoor meet. It’s only March and there is plenty of time for Ruthe to prepare for when it counts.
Please. You are showing your lack of sophisticated understanding of running.
Centrowitz was the world leader in the mile at 3:50 in 2016. He won world indoors. The year before he ran 3:30.40 for 1500. The world lead in the 1500 for 2016 was 3:29.33.
So he won a tactical race over guys who were at most 2-3 seconds faster than him, maybe 1-2.
In case, Ruthe, who has run the equivalent of 3:59 flat in the mile, just tied a guy who has run 3:51 this year. So 7.5 seconds faster.
In college, a 4:00 guy almost never loses to 4:07.5 even if it's tactical.
Almost is not never. And Tanner did not lose.
Pedantry. He matched a runner whose mile pr is 10 seconds faster.
I don't suggest he is anywhere near 3:31 for the 1500. But to be competitive with an athlete of that level, whose pr is 10 secs faster over the mile, and better than other 4:00 milers indicates he is better than 4:00 by quite a margin. That is considerably better than Ingebrigtsen at the same age and faster than athletes like Ryun when they were 2 years older - and they were prodigies who trained like adults.
Best not to compare him to Ryun. Ryun started running when he was about 15-1/2, which is one reason his story is so notable. He went from 5:38 in Sept of ‘62 to 3:59 in June of ‘64, less than two years. The new breed of junior stars seem to have started training when they were younger than 10 yrs old. Very few Americans are involved in organized track when that young. Other sports take precidence for the most part.
Ryun wasn't a late developer. He was a prodigy at 17. But still no faster than a 15 today who apparently doesn't train anywhere near as hard as he did.
Sam Ruthe started training late, despite having runner parents, so he's more the Ryun type, late to the scene, quick to the fore, than an early prodigy like Jakob.
Better than Jakob at 15 is not a late developer. Late developer is runners who peak after 30.
I don't suggest he is anywhere near 3:31 for the 1500. But to be competitive with an athlete of that level, whose pr is 10 secs faster over the mile, and better than other 4:00 milers indicates he is better than 4:00 by quite a margin. That is considerably better than Ingebrigtsen at the same age and faster than athletes like Ryun when they were 2 years older - and they were prodigies who trained like adults.
This race wasn’t an Olympic final. Tanner is not in 3:31 shape, and how hard he pushed himself is an unknown. When Ruthe runs outdoors this spring, we’ll have a much better idea of just how good he is.
Meanwhile, Ruthe seems to be the one person on the planet that you don’t think is a doper.
I beg to differ. Some things just look too good to be true.
When Ruthe runs outdoors in spring it will be at the end of a long season for a 15 year old.
What more do you need to "get an idea of just how good he is" for a 15 year old kid - are stopwatches different in the US? Does the imperial system measure time differently?
He’s not going to run the WCs? If he does, he’ll be going against people at their peak fitness for the year. That will tell us a lot more about his talent than having tied a 3:31 guy in an indoor meet. It’s only March and there is plenty of time for Ruthe to prepare for when it counts.
"When it counts". Calm down.
I reiterate, he's 15 and he's done enough this year to prove his talent with world bests across numerous distances for his age. This is a long term project.
He's 15 years old, no he most likely won't run WCs.
He's already had a full season in the Southern Hemisphere. I wouldn't be surprised if he does his US trip to Arcadia etc, comprehensively dismantles whatever over-hyped American HS competition is put up against him then Kirkwood puts him on ice for a few months to train and focus on being a kid.
In the meantime posters here will delve down every rabbit hole and Livstrong will continue to wax on about doping and Ryun or whatever other dementia riddled repetition comes into his head.
He’s not going to run the WCs? If he does, he’ll be going against people at their peak fitness for the year. That will tell us a lot more about his talent than having tied a 3:31 guy in an indoor meet. It’s only March and there is plenty of time for Ruthe to prepare for when it counts.
The race was outdoors. Of course he won’t be at the world championships he is 15 and 10 seconds off the qualifying standard. He is eligible for the next 2 world junior championships. He has had a long successful summer and in my humble opinion CK and his dad should be calling time on his season right now and not carry it on to the USA. He has got a huge future smashing some American talent in April really isn’t that important in the bigger picture.
For a runner that out kicked hocker in a 3.34 1500 and ran 3.31 and finished within a second of wightman and bet kerr all in 2022 at the age of 21 this can't be sugar coated as anything but a poor result .
Hopefully his team works out quickly whats going wrong and Tanner fulfills the promise he showed when he was younger .
Tanner is class. He had an achillies injury before Paris, did 6 weeks of running and got into 3.34 shape which was pushing it but thats what you do for the Olympics. He nursed it back after a break and has gone from 3.55 to 3.51 in short order. Tanner was charged with leading 1000m out and winding up the pace quicker and quicker. Tanner did all the work and Sam Ruthe just sat and kicked. Tanner did the race after a week of increased volume as he has Maurie Plant on 29 March which he will be fresh for. Tanner is clearly better than Sam Ruthe and was game to do all the work and probably didn't think Sam Ruthe would have the race of his life to Tie him.
Ruthe is barely older now than when Ryun started training. Yeah, there’s a big diffference.
Snell was an Olympic champion only two years after taking up the sport. It doesn't take years to become a top runner. In his era Ryun was running world class times at 17, after only two years. But a 15 year old is nowhere near the level of physical maturity that a top 17 year old is.
When Ruthe runs outdoors in spring it will be at the end of a long season for a 15 year old.
What more do you need to "get an idea of just how good he is" for a 15 year old kid - are stopwatches different in the US? Does the imperial system measure time differently?
He’s not going to run the WCs? If he does, he’ll be going against people at their peak fitness for the year. That will tell us a lot more about his talent than having tied a 3:31 guy in an indoor meet. It’s only March and there is plenty of time for Ruthe to prepare for when it counts.
It was an outdoor meet - the New Zealand Track and Field Champs to be precise. So the end of the season for Ruthe. Guessing you don’t realise New Zealand is coming to the end of their summer..
Snell was an Olympic champion only two years after taking up the sport. It doesn't take years to become a top runner. In his era Ryun was running world class times at 17, after only two years. But a 15 year old is nowhere near the level of physical maturity that a top 17 year old is.
I don't understand what you mean here. What is 'physical maturity' as regards running performance? Sam Ruthe looks at least 3 inches taller than Sam Tanner (who is 5ft 7"). The average 16 year old today is more physically developed than the average 16 year old fifty years ago. You've said before that size has no bearing on running performance, so what is this 'physical maturity' if it has nothing to do with either size or years of training?
Snell was an Olympic champion only two years after taking up the sport. It doesn't take years to become a top runner. In his era Ryun was running world class times at 17, after only two years. But a 15 year old is nowhere near the level of physical maturity that a top 17 year old is.
I don't understand what you mean here. What is 'physical maturity' as regards running performance? Sam Ruthe looks at least 3 inches taller than Sam Tanner (who is 5ft 7"). The average 16 year old today is more physically developed than the average 16 year old fifty years ago. You've said before that size has no bearing on running performance, so what is this 'physical maturity' if it has nothing to do with either size or years of training?
You seem unaware that there are enormous developmental changes that occur in the teens. If there weren't then we could expect a 14 year old - or a 13 year old - to run as fast as Ruthe is now. Barring injury he will be much faster at 17 than he is at 15. That is entirely natural. What I am sceptical of is that he is as now fast as an insanely gifted teenager was who was two years older - and on a fraction of the training.
Youngsters in sports aren't necessarily more physically developed today than in the '60's. Ryun was 6'1" at 17. He was taller than Ruthe. On the other hand, Coe was 5'8" and El G the same and Kipchoge 5'6". So what does it mean to be be "physically more developed" as a runner? Height isn't necessarily the measure but heart, muscles and lungs. These change through the teens. That's why we see age records. Furthermore, in a sport like running, which is much less technical than many other sports, athletes can progress very quickly when they reach physical maturity - 20 upwards.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Ruthe is barely older now than when Ryun started training. Yeah, there’s a big diffference.
Snell was an Olympic champion only two years after taking up the sport. It doesn't take years to become a top runner. In his era Ryun was running world class times at 17, after only two years. But a 15 year old is nowhere near the level of physical maturity that a top 17 year old is.
Everyone matures at different rates. When I was 22 years old I didn't look a day over 17,
I don't understand what you mean here. What is 'physical maturity' as regards running performance? Sam Ruthe looks at least 3 inches taller than Sam Tanner (who is 5ft 7"). The average 16 year old today is more physically developed than the average 16 year old fifty years ago. You've said before that size has no bearing on running performance, so what is this 'physical maturity' if it has nothing to do with either size or years of training?
You seem unaware that there are enormous developmental changes that occur in the teens. If there weren't then we could expect a 14 year old - or a 13 year old - to run as fast as Ruthe is now. Barring injury he will be much faster at 17 than he is at 15. That is entirely natural. What I am sceptical of is that he is as now fast as an insanely gifted teenager was who was two years older - and on a fraction of the training.
Youngsters in sports aren't necessarily more physically developed today than in the '60's. Ryun was 6'1" at 17. He was taller than Ruthe. On the other hand, Coe was 5'8" and El G the same and Kipchoge 5'6". So what does it mean to be be "physically more developed" as a runner? Height isn't necessarily the measure but heart, muscles and lungs. These change through the teens. That's why we see age records. Furthermore, in a sport like running, which is much less technical than many other sports, athletes can progress very quickly when they reach physical maturity - 20 upwards.
He'll probably burn out and be out of the sport at 20.